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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
Original poster
LookAtMeGo · 06/08/2015 21:31

Racism was once an 'idea' that was normalised by society. Is that ok then? I really don't understand your point.

OP posts:
Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 22:20

We will just have to agree to differ. I really think it very unimportant and not a critical step in equality. I can't see that it matters.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 22:50

Mehitabel, if you can't see that it matters, then logically you would have no objection if Ms, or any other term, was used as a blanket replacement so forms just had Mr or Ms, right? Because it doesn't matter, in your words, is exactly why you should be okay with it?

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 22:54

I have no objection at all to anyone changing their title and using Ms and I will comply.
I have every objection to them choosing my title.
I shall continue with Mrs.
We have free choice and I shall use it.

EBearhug · 06/08/2015 22:58

in fairness to the organisations, I don't think they are trying to define anyone by marital status. I think that's what they think their female customers want.

Also, the majority of programmers are men, and some of them are not terribly enlightened when it comes to equality and diversity and will never have questioned whether they needed to make any further changes beyond including Miss, Mrs, Ms as well as Mr & Dr.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 22:59

I think that you totally misunderstand me. Mrs, Miss, Ms is not an issue. I couldn't care less who knows my marital status and it doesn't tell them that because I was Mrs when not married anyway.
It is a huge issue that people should tell me which I must use.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 23:17

Mehitabel, so you would object if, for the purpose of gender, titles were only Mr or Ms? If that's correct, may I ask why you would object?

Do you find it odd that men haven't asked for the equivalent of Miss or Mrs?

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 07:38

Not odd. Why make changes? If we do why not just go for the equivalent and all have Mrs or all have Miss? Why have a new one that people mispronounce? ( if you say they don't you obviously haven't heard children say Ms!)

Nolim · 07/08/2015 08:21

Why make changes?
To move away from a sexist setting.

If we do why not just go for the equivalent and all have Mrs or all have Miss?
that option works in another languages as it has already been mentioned in this thread (madam in french). In english afaik ms is the neutral female title and it is used as such in another countries. From a practical point of view it is easier to converge to a point that is already working (even though only partialy in the uk) than to reinvent the wheel iykwim.

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 08:27

I am not stopping anyone!
I don't want to change one system by being told what to do by others.
Live and let live. It isn't important. I save my battles for things that I think important. I rarely use a title anyway. Can't think when I last did.

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 08:29

We could get rid of titles altogether and the problem is solved!

LassUnparalleled · 07/08/2015 09:09

We could do away with them. I'm not sure why you are so attached to Mrs. You say it didn't mean you were married but it's purpose is to show a woman is , or was married.

So far as "Ms" apparently meaning a woman is divorced in my experience I've never knowingly met any divorcé who did that. Quite the opposite, most keep the Mrs His Name. Which seems weird to me. The reason is usually it's too difficult to change - it can't be any more difficult than it was the first time nor than getting divorced.

achieve6 · 07/08/2015 09:39

Mehitabel, you dislike Ms for the sound, okay.

so, out of interest, why did you pick Mrs?

SirChenjin · 07/08/2015 10:32

We could get rid of titles altogether and the problem is solved

This

I don't want to change one system by being told what to do by others

And this.

Here's the thing. Pick Ms if that's what you want and stop trying to impose your will on others or worrying about what others are doing.

SenecaFalls · 07/08/2015 13:32

But it does matter what others are doing. That's evidently why in the UK, Ms is thought by many only to apply to divorced women. It just reinforces this societal proclivity to identify women in terms of their relationship to men.

WitchofScots · 07/08/2015 13:38

I'm still Mrs as well, I've never changed it because I haven't changed my name back so it'd seem odd to use Miss with a surname that wasn't mine. To complicate things, I was married although not to the person whose surname that I have. I do sometimes wonder about changing Mrs but Miss seems a bit Hmm when you are in your 50s.

SirChenjin · 07/08/2015 13:46

No, it doesn't matter what others are doing - not when it comes to something as trivial as this. So Ms is thought by 'many' - so what? 'Many' don't think that - it's just a title, and one I really can't get my knickers in a twist over. If some women choose to demonstrate their relationship to their husband by using a particular then that's up to them - no-one is forcing you to. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.

If we're going to move on this, I'd back no titles at all. I really couldn't care less if someone is Dr, Mr, Lady, Rev or any of the other titles we choose to bestow on people (outside the workplace where it might actually matter).

Iggi999 · 07/08/2015 15:00

I'm don't have real freedom of choice until I have the same freedoms that men automatically have.

SirChenjin · 07/08/2015 15:03

In this context - such as?

Mehitabel6 · 07/08/2015 16:57

Mrs can be pronounced easily by all - unlike Ms - which can sound dreadful.
I refuse to make a big deal out of trivialities- we need to save it for what matters.
I keep saying that I have no problem with women choosing it and will use it if they wish. My problem is the same as I always have- people making a decision and thinking it should be for everyone.
If I accept your choice I can't see why I can't have the same courtesy. I can't see why I have to justify it either.
I like Mrs, I chose Mrs, I remain Mrs and that should be enough for anyone.

SenecaFalls · 07/08/2015 17:30

Ms is pronounced Miz. It isn't any worst than other z sounds. Mrs also ends in a z sound for most speakers.

It may seem trivial, but it is not. Sexism and discrimination against women are often a culmination of a lot of seemingly small things.

There was such a good post on this from a poster called temporaryusername on a similar thread a while back that I saved it:

"I understand that individuals may have valid and good reasons for choosing to change their name or title. I am sympathetic to that but it is a wider issue, and keeping a choice of three titles isn't an anodyne solution.

If you want to show you are married, you could write (married) after your name. That doesn't sound like a great option probably, because it would make people wonder why you are so keen to write that and would make a statement about you. The problem is that at present the titles women have to choose from also do that, ie. 'Ms' being associated with certain attitudes. If you want to argue for a system where woman are preceded by an announcement of marital status and/or personal views, you can. I don't think you can use the argument of 'don't impose your choice on me' very effectively though. Retaining the three titles is imposing your choice, and all its implications, on other women who would prefer a system that at least paid lip service to the idea of equality."

LassUnparalleled · 07/08/2015 17:49

That's evidently why in the UK, Ms is thought by many only to apply to divorced women

Seneca speaking from my bubble again I'm still bemused where this idea has come from. And it seems to be women themselves coming up with this interpretation. It's just bonkers.

I regularly get work correspondence addressed to me by clients and other solicitors using Ms. I doubt very much it's because they think I'm divorced.

Woofsaidthedog · 07/08/2015 17:53

I always refer to myself as Ms., despite being married and have done since before marriage. We don't label men with that ridiculous title so why do we label women in that way? I also will never change to my husbands name but that's through choice

Iggi999 · 07/08/2015 17:58

Men have the freedom to have daily interactions with delivery companies, banks, schools, doctors, salespeople etc etc without being asked to declare whether or not they are married.
I can chose "Ms" but it's never ever the default with the people mentioned above - the question usually being "Miss or Missus?" Even if they add in a Ms it's not equality with men as I'm being asked a preference again "saying" something about me. With men it is always Mr, unless they themselves volunteer that they are a Dr/Rev or whatever. Women has to define themselves relative to a man whenever they are asked for a title. How is this trivial?

SenecaFalls · 07/08/2015 18:04

I'm in a bubble, too, Lass. In the US, Ms is very common for all adult women, and virtually universal in professional and business contexts. I had never hear of this divorced business until I joined MN.

I do know that when I am in the UK, I get called Mrs in situations where in the States, it would be Ms. For example, when using a credit card, and the shop clerk returns it and says thank you, Mrs Surname on Card. I guess they assume it's Mrs because I am a woman of a certain age and I wear a wedding ring. In the US, it's always Ms in that situation.

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