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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
VulcanWoman · 10/08/2015 07:55

I'm not married and in my 40's, I use Miss but feel a bit of an arse, I never use Ms as I thought a Woman used it to disguise the fact that she wasn't married and felt bad about it, now before you shoot me down, in thinking about it, I think my view is arsey and will now not be using any title where possible or Colonel or Ms.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 08:01

I thought my experience was due to always being somewhat 'out in the sticks' so I have just taken a London school at random and found several staff members as Ms - but it must be personal choice as some were Miss. They were all young.

SylvanianCaracal · 10/08/2015 08:14

I'll say it again, Ms (pronounced "Ms" is not a mouthful. It's maybe new and different to some people / kids, and they may be doing that thing people do with unfamiliar names where they refuse to go with it. It's rude and disrespectful and that's why I would insist and help them learn - as I would with an unfamiliar name.

Why don't primary school staff generally use Ms, like say, the staff of a national broadsheet or law office? I'd argue it's because general acceptance of gender inequality still holds sway in primary school. Even where people mean well and don't consciously think they are sexist, you see it everywhere.

(The gendered stickers next to the name hooks, the inequality in uniform footwear, meaning boys are equipped to run about and girls aren't; letting boys push forward in science experiment while girls hang back and aren't encouraged, assuming every child has as a default a female full-time carer who can turn up at the school on demand; falling over in surprise when they aren't available, or it's a man ("isn't he wonderful") - I've seen all this and much much more at our very good, very highly rated, inner city primary.)

All women get called Miss or Mrs by default, all mums are Mrs Childsname, and teachers are likely to experience similar assumptions. People who might like to use Ms may give up or not bother because they don't want to be thought awkward.

SylvanianCaracal · 10/08/2015 08:14

sorry pronounced "Miz"

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 08:19

"all mums are Mrs Childsname,"

This.

Mehitabel, I'd prefer Ms was the only title in use but I'm not going to make a thing about your personal choice. Could you return the courtesy and not be critical about teachers who do choose to use it and how hard it is for the kids (some of whom, like mine, will have mothers who use Ms)?

feelingdizzy · 10/08/2015 08:20

I married young,(wouldn't do that now) took his name developed a career in that name so decided it was my name when we divorced, it is also my kids name. I am Ms and a teacher , kids have no problem with it .

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 08:20

I would rather be Ms pronounced in a slightly odd way than be Miss or Mrs when I am neither of those things.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 08:37

I am. It critical of teachers choosing Ms. Just explaining why they may not like it.
We keep going around in circles!
I am quite happy to call people Ms BUT expect the same courtesy back and don't expect to have to justify it- or have it assumed it isn't a conscious choice.
Live and let live. We make decisions for ourselves because we think it best. We shouldn't think we know best for every one else.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 08:37

Sorry - random full stops. I am not critical

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 08:45

"It was the ones who had been 'educated' who made such a mess if it. All teachers, in my experience (part of the world ) are Mrs or Miss. This was one school where one was Ms and obviously made a huge thing of it with the children because they passed it on to me as a supply teacher that she had to be called Ms ( said with great emphasis !)
They were only 6 years old and haven't a clue about your marital status- not working out the difference between Mrs and Miss ( or having the slightest clue why someone was insisting on Ms) ."

This post sounded pretty critical. Glad it wasn't.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 08:52

No it just made me smile. The children had obviously had it impressed upon them - the rest of us just had to put up with Miss when we were Mrs. They were very slap dash with names, but were very careful with the one called Ms. It wasn't a one off- several made a big point of telling me it had to be Ms- I think they were protecting me from putting my foot in it! Smile

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 08:53

My point was that I hated the pronunciation of Ms- and that was from the ones who had been told how to say it.

SylvanianCaracal · 10/08/2015 09:03

Mehitabel can't you see your posts about this give off a strong sense that you think calling yourself Ms and insisting on it is a bit looney and letting anyone get away with it is political correctness gorn mad.

Of course no one has to "put up with" being called Miss if they want to be called Mrs. Tell the kids. Write it on the board, inform them why and what it means and drum into them the importance of respecting a person's title preference. Tell them you'll pay attention to their requests when addressed by your correct title, and so on. Any "Mrs" could insist, just as much as any Ms, if she wanted to.

And I do totally respect people's choices and call them by their preference. Because I respect people's feelings. However, I do also think that if you agree to a system that is unfair and treats women differently to men and as if they only exist in relation to men, you are broadcasting to the world (and all the kids you teach, sadly) that as a woman you think that's OK - that deep down you don't think you deserve the same rights and freedoms as men.

I realise you may not see it that way, but I do and I have objective fact on my side. It's true that sexism exists, women are disadvantaged in countless ways, and suffer poor treatment from men (and other women) in a gendered way. And it's also true that when it comes to naming conventions, that inequality is reflected. Titles that serve to reflect a woman's relationship to a man, and name-changing that reflects women being less important than men, serve to reinforce and perpetuate that unequal message.

So, IMO, any woman who adheres to those traditions is helping to do other women and girls, all of them, as well as herself, a disservice.

I can think that, and still respect that my newly married friend wants to be called Mrs Hisname. To me, she might as well call herself "Hisname's Chattel" but I would never haul her over the coals and tell her she should do things differently. If the subject comes up and is being debated though, as here, I'll say what I think.

Charis1 · 10/08/2015 09:09

Perhaps the question is why don't teachers, TAs, office staff in schools and female headteachers use Ms?

because it is an utterly appalling and disgusting example to young girls, as if being single is something to hide in shame.

I am MISS exactly to counteract this attitude. To me, being single is something to celebrate.

All female staff in my school are Ms by default, as in all schools I have ever worked in. Although "miss" as a form of address in speech, Ms in writing. I refuse to accept this though, and kick up a fuss every time. I insist on being recorded as "Miss" in all name tags, and official lists and records.

If young girls don't see that singleness is a happy and valid choice I am proud to publish, you are giving them the impression that being part of a couple is a state to pursue at all costs.

Where as I am happy to promote healthy relationships as an aim for those suited to them, I am very much against relationships being held us as the desired "norm" at all costs.

SylvanianCaracal · 10/08/2015 09:18

I can see that argument Charis, I agree singleness is nothing to be ashamed of. But "Ms" doesn't say "I'm not single" - it says "I'm the same status as a man, i.e. you can't tell".

Does men being called "Mr" set a terrible example to boys that they're not allowed to be single? No.

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 09:21

Eh, Charis?

That's not what Ms is about! Ms is about "my marital status is irrelevant" not "I'm ashamed to be single"

I've been Ms Myname since I was 19 and DH has been Mr Hisname since he was 16 or so. To both of us, our marriage is irrelevant to our names and titles.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 09:22

A good point Charis

There does seem to be a prevailing attitude (denied) that Miss for an adult is somehow inferior.

That is exactly what the teacher with Ms had done Sylvanian - which is why the 6 yr olds were protecting me so that I wouldn't get it wrong! They can be very kind.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 09:24

You can't tell with Miss- they could easily be married.
I think Miss Elizabeth Taylor was married about 6 times!

Iggi999 · 10/08/2015 10:07

There's a ranking: mostly it comes out that people put being "Mrs" as the top dog title. Charis has reversed this and made it Miss. Both approaches are examples of sexism and a bit silly in this day and age.

achieve6 · 10/08/2015 11:52

Charis, I'm single and find it worthy of celebration every 5 minutes :)

but the title issue is that the title should not say anything about your marital status.

Ms doesn't say anything. It is not there to hide singleness! In fact, some of my married friends would say if it's hiding anything, it's hiding marriedness!

but really the point is Ms = adult woman just as Mr = adult man.

I actually can't believe this conversation.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 10/08/2015 12:23

There does seem to be a prevailing attitude (denied) that Miss for an adult is somehow inferior.

Oh, but it is inferior, surely?

'Miss' is equivalent to 'Master', and those are titles for children. I don't think of children as being the same as full adults.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 10/08/2015 12:25

Oh, and to answer the question, I am divorced but was Ms throughout. I formally graduated from my PhD roughly when my marriage ended, so I went from Ms to Dr, but I use Ms most of the time, or no title at all.

ChunkyPickle · 10/08/2015 13:56

At my all girls school children we were not allowed to call teachers 'Miss' (as in generic MIIIIIISSSS) - we were to use their name - Miss Brown, or Mrs Granville or whatever. There's nothing innate in children that means that have to call female teachers 'Miss'. The rule was the same at my country primary. The only place I saw kids yelling Miss was on Grange Hill!

Out of interest I looked at the school we're thinking of sending DS1 to next year, and every single woman was listed as Ms, and every man as Mr. It gave me a warm feeling actually - like it had been thought about and a policy set.

SenecaFalls · 10/08/2015 14:04

I also don't understand how the British convention of addressing male teachers as "Sir," but female teachers as "Miss" came about. Surely that is gender discrimination at its finest: the men get an honorific that denotes respect, but the women don't.

ChunkyPickle · 10/08/2015 14:15

Yes, surely if male teachers are 'Sir' then females should be 'Maam' - I suspect it's because if you were a teacher, you were unmarried - since if you got married you'd have been expected to give up your job.