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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
LassUnparalleled · 08/08/2015 22:52

The solicitor calls her cleaner Mary, but Mary has to use Ms Smith

Oh come off it. I am a solicitor. I have employed nannies,cleaners and gardeners over the years. I still have a cleaner and a gardener. Not one of them has ever called me anything other than my first name.

I mentioned hairdressers. The juniors call me (wrongly but politely) "Mrs" because they don't know my name and they are so much younger than me. If we were in France they would call me "Madame". My actual hairdresser calls me by first name and always has done.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 07:26

I didn't say everyone was the same Lass. I wouldn't do it and know mainly people who wouldn't. This doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
There are always exceptions. You can never make blanket statements.
That wasn't a blanket statement. I merely said that I thought inequality of using titles was worse than your choice of title. I specifically said that it was changing - even in the most conservative of places - Ambridge in the Archers! However it still happens and is wrong IMO.

Some solicitors call their cleaner by their first name and expect a title and surname back. Some solicitors have moved with the times and have an equal use of first names.

SylvanianCaracal · 09/08/2015 20:17

Re pronunciation, i think there is a belief among some people that "Ms" has to be pronounced "MZZZZZ" with no vowel in it. It comes across as quite hard to say because of this exaggerated no vowel thing. But in fact if you just relax and say "Miz" (like Miss but with a z) it's no problem at all.

SenecaFalls · 09/08/2015 20:44

Ms is an abbreviation for mistress and parallels the abbreviation for Mr in that the first and last letters are used. The difference is that we don't pronounce the full word as mistress, so it's miz as Sylvanian says. It's pretty simple really and anyone who doesn't like the sound needs to explain how they feel about all the other "z" sounds in English.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:09

You obviously haven't heard what children do with the pronunciation- that is what has put me off completely!

JodieMacdonald31 · 09/08/2015 22:12

I deedpolled to Mrs because I was fed up of the looks/whispers at dentist, doctors & schools when they saw I had a child and was miss.

SenecaFalls · 09/08/2015 22:16

I have heard many children pronounce it. I am in the US South where many people pronounce Mrs and Ms the same way: Miz. And where Ms is very commonplace for adult women. Children seem to have no particular problem with it.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:17

They mangle it it in my part of the UK.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:18

And as a teacher I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it daily.
Most are likely to stick with Miss anyway.

Charis1 · 09/08/2015 22:25

I absolutely hate being called anything other than Miss.

I have withdrawn my application to store cards that do not give me the option of being "Miss"

I have refused to fill out forms without this option.

I am an independent single woman, very proud and happy to be so, and never ever want to be mistaken for anything else, certainly not as a wife.

SylvanianCaracal · 09/08/2015 22:34

If children can't pronounce it, they need educating (and also if it was me I would be educating them as to exactly why I require them to call me it and asking them to discuss the whole issue and have a think about it. And helping them practice).

Of course any child who can speak normally can say "Miz", there is nothing to mangle. If they can say "is" and "mister", they can say "Miz". If they are making a massive deal out of it, that is as a way of singling someone out for making a stand and stepping outside the norm. It's a very common method of slapping people down (especially women) and I don't think anyone should stand for that.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:42

It was the ones who had been 'educated' who made such a mess if it. All teachers, in my experience (part of the world ) are Mrs or Miss. This was one school where one was Ms and obviously made a huge thing of it with the children because they passed it on to me as a supply teacher that she had to be called Ms ( said with great emphasis !)
They were only 6 years old and haven't a clue about your marital status- not working out the difference between Mrs and Miss ( or having the slightest clue why someone was insisting on Ms) .

SenecaFalls · 09/08/2015 22:47

I am an independent single woman, very proud and happy to be so, and never ever want to be mistaken for anything else, certainly not as a wife.

So why not use Ms?

SenecaFalls · 09/08/2015 22:52

I can see perhaps these children being confused at first. But in my experience, children pick up things pretty quickly, especially if they see it as a novelty. The pronunciation thing is a complete non-issue, usually drummed up by people who have other objections to women using the title.

YonicScrewdriver · 09/08/2015 22:56

Mehit, what's wrong with six year olds learning that there are three titles and learning how to say them. It obviously didn't bother the Ms in question or she would have chosen to use another title.

Let's say there's a Mr Andriopolis who teaches infants. Chances are it'll take them a while to get his name right and some will be saying "Mr Andrewpolice" all year. That doesn't mean he shouldn't try and teach them his name.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:56

It is generally because all female staff in schools are Mrs or Miss. People keep on making out I am an oddity and yet in 40 yrs of teaching, in many schools, in different LEAs, with 3 children through school I have come across about 4 with the title Ms. And that goes for today when still working with schools. These are all intelligent women who understand they have the choice- and they use it!

anonymousforever · 09/08/2015 22:57

I'm a married woman and I use miss and ms interchangeagably. With my own surname.

Mehitabel6 · 09/08/2015 22:57

I think he would settle for Mr A - that is generally what they do.

YonicScrewdriver · 09/08/2015 23:01

Mmm, but that's a circular argument.

It never gets used by teachers
Kids find it hard to say because they aren't used to it
Ergo a teacher who does use it is, in your eyes, "insisting on Ms about which the kids don't have the slightest clue"

I'm well aware that all teachers do use Miss or Mrs at my children's schools - I'd be interested to know if they use Ms at their banks or whatever but pick Miss/Mrs at school because that's the "done" thing

SylvanianCaracal · 09/08/2015 23:05

Yes even more reason to help them get their heads round the idea when they're 6. After all what do 6yos spend all day doing at school, if not learning new words and concepts? And this one is pretty easy.

SenecaFalls · 09/08/2015 23:05

Further to Yonic's point, many other posters have said that in their work worlds, the common title is Ms. Shouldn't schools encourage this much more equal title?

SylvanianCaracal · 09/08/2015 23:10

I totally think they should, but I certainly do find that primary school seems to be one of the last bastions of doing everything as if it was 50 years ago. It really almost impossible (as a parent) to get myself seen as Ms there. I don't want to push it to a ridiculous extent as there are more urgent things for the teachers (and me) to be getting on with, but I do find the lack of any awareness of stuff like feminism and modernity quite amazing.

Charis1 · 09/08/2015 23:10

I am an independent single woman, very proud and happy to be so, and never ever want to be mistaken for anything else, certainly not as a wife.

So why not use Ms?

because I don't want to be mistaken for a wife.

Iggi999 · 09/08/2015 23:11

Teacher who uses Ms (though I don't bother if children get it wrong). I have noticed a decline in the number of female staff using it over the years, it's as if teachers are becoming more conventional instead to less. I think it would be a big step if female management used Ms - all the heads I have known have been Mrs.

Mehitabel6 · 10/08/2015 07:36

Perhaps the question is why don't teachers, TAs, office staff in schools and female headteachers use Ms? Perhaps like me they simply don't like it.

The answer could be that other workers may be Ms but they are not being called it hundreds of times a day. They have no need to use it. Schools do, constantly, and despite me being told that children can pronounce it - or jolly well should be taught to- they don't. They don't tend to try with mouthful names. One of my DSs had a teacher called Mrs A by everyone and DS1's first teacher was called Mrs BB by everyone.
Since children are quite likely to call all female staff Miss anyway I can't see that it matters!

People can't see why I hate Ms but they are not going to start the day with 30 children saying Ms with the register- I rather doubt you would get called Ms 30 times in a week. Certainly no one has called me Mrs in the last week.
The register is only the start- it would then be Ms all day- it would drive me batty!

It also doesn't show marital status other than at some time you have most likely been married if Mrs. You have no way of telling if a Miss has been married. I was Mrs for 7 years without a husband. I know some women who are Miss despite being married for 20yrs or more- with children. I certainly know some who are Miss who have a long term partner and children.