Ms, Mrs,Miss

[LookAtMeGo]

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

To whoever it was who asked for specific examples in Europe:

in Greece, I am known as Kyria Polistigers. All adult women are known as Kyria, regardless of their marital status. No one cares about their marital status, no one is interested. And women do not take their husband's surname on marriage.

I think that attitudes need changing rather than titles.

I got very irritated with the Mr Russell in a other thread, maybe it didn't irritate others but the poster happened to agree with BertrandRussell and kept saying so. I assumed that Mr was put in to add gravitas because there was nothing to indicate it was a man, other than where the name came from.
I let it go to start with but then it irritated me too much. It never happens with a woman - e.g no one started calling LauraBridges ( another name changer who has moved on) Mrs Bridges or even Ms Bridges - I can only assume that it didn't add weight to any arguments.
It is hardly a secret from this thread that it would be Ms Russell so I am not telling anyone something they couldn't guess.
However the thread in question was nothing to do with feminism.

I find all this far more irritating than a title.

I also get far more irritated with inequalities like calling hair dressers by their first name while they call you Ms and surname. Whatever you choose it should be both.
Even the Archers , if you listen to it, have moved with the times and where you used to have Jennifer calling her 'social inferior' 'Clarrie' while Clarrie used 'Mrs Aldriidge' you now at least have Clarrie and Jennifer.

I haven't even been convinced on here that we need titles.

The Quakers have it right, I think. No titles and everyone is addressed by first name or the more formal first and last name together or as "Friend." Letters just say "John Smith." In the Quaker schools I am familiar with, teachers are also addressed by first name.

Or maybe the argument is that we need to be equal to men but not to other women. The solicitor calls her cleaner Mary, but Mary has to use Ms Smith.
If so it all seems a bit ironic to me.

In Quebec you aren't allowed to change your name (or marriage or otherwise). Not sure what titles are common there as it's not quite like like either France or the rest of Canada, but I do know that if you move there and get married you can't take your husband's name.

NB someone downthread said that I had thought name changes on marriage were automatic. That's not what I said/meant, just that twenty years ago I didn't really think about it. I knew the option to not change was there, I just dismissed it without much reflection. No particular regrets, but if I got married now I'm sure I'd choose differently, and now I would expect no change more than change if a friend/colleague got married.

It would be nice to have a generic adult title/honourific that didn't call out either marital status or sex, but was just generally polite. Much more versatile too.

I can't see why we can't all do that, Seneca.

I think in Quebec it's madame for all adult women. Actually, I think that would be true in other provinces as well when people are speaking French.

I did once have an hilarious conversation about my title sometime in the mid 1990s. I was doing something fairly trivial on the phone, like ordering flowers or similar, I gave my name as first name last name and the woman on the phone said "Is that Miss or Mrs?" and I replied "Ms". I had to spell it for her. There followed the funniest conversation where she explained to me what the titles 'Miss' and 'Mrs' meant as though I was a particularly dim foreigner (I did have an Irish accent at the time). Then she insisted that I MUST know whether or not I was married and I had to tell her which. Then she said that she had never, in her whole life, heard of 'Ms' and it wasn't used in this country (the UK). At that point I resisted the urge to ask if she was phoning from the 1950s, and instead told her that if she felt unable to use Ms, which was very widely used in the big city (London), then she should use whatever title she wanted to or none at all because I had answered her question and there was nothing more to be said. Then I put the phone down and laughed until I nearly cried.

I'm interested to know why you think or care that you would be gossiped about if you didn't have the same name as your DH HowD? If a neighbour asked me why I wore a wedding ring (not that I do) I would reply "Because I'm married, the clue is in the name, 'wedding' ring." If any asked me why I hadn't changed my name I always said it was because I didn't want to. If people implied that I should have I would always say that things have changed since their generation got married (if older) or "Your a bit young to be such a fuddy-duddy, aren't you?" if they were my age. I'm a bit of a rude arse I'm afraid.

"I got very irritated with the Mr Russell in a other thread, maybe it didn't irritate others but the poster happened to agree with BertrandRussell and kept saying so. I assumed that Mr was put in to add gravitas because there was nothing to indicate it was a man, other than where the name came from. "

Good Lord,- BertrandRussell as in me? How did I miss that- I'm not used to people agreeing with me!

Incidentally- if you don't like Mr being used to imply status, surely you don't like Mrs being used the same way? Mrs is traditionally considered to have more gravitas than Miss.............

I like the idea of Kyria for all adult women- does that go across the social classes, though? When I was a child in Greece a million years ago Kyria/Kyrios was (I think) only used "upwards"

You're not your, obviously. Why can I instantly see it after I've pressed post, but not before?

I read that about Quebec when they changed the law. It pissed me off, but I have no idea why really as I have never wanted to change my name. They generously allowed women who had already changed their name on marriage to keep their husband's name.

HowDdo2You - huh?!

what gossip were you trying to avoid? And why did you care? Also if you don't mind me asking - was that a really long time ago?

I don't notice or care what name children have in relation to their father or mother and no one in my "bubble" does either.

I don't know how you missed it. I expect it was collective worship and I pointed out it was Ms Russell who had been around for years under various names. I think most people were agreeing with you!
It riled me far more than Mrs or Miss which have never been used in the same way. I would actually use Miss for gravitas because there have been some pretty formidable women using Miss. I don't get the idea that marriage is superior.
I also don't think that people notice these things. I had no wedding ring for years- not one person noticed!
Perhaps we could all keep Miss - then there is no problem.
Children call you Miss anyway.

I was very young and yes it was a good while ago. I wasn't as confident then as I am now.

I use Miss. I am 47, unmarried.
i did used Ms for a while in my teens/20's but I can't actually say it properly - I just never got the hang of saying it. It makes me feel like I have a bag lisp/speech impediment. I can't be the only one surely?

So I decided to channel Miss Elizabeth Taylor, Miss Sophia Loren etc and just stay Miss forever.

I will never marry and if I did I wouldn't change my name. My children have my name.

I would ideally prefer no title or a non gendered title - Pers, or P (person) would be great.

If I had kept my original surname I would have kept Miss too. I can't see what is wrong with it or why Mrs should be superior. Very odd.
Definitely don't see why Mrs gives more gravitas. I have never ever seen it used that way. It instantly riled me to have the first part of the name replaced by Mr. What possible reason could there be - other than a man's view carries more weight? My name is often shortened on here- doesn't bother me at all and I shorten if people have a mouthful - that is different.

I don't understand why one thing gets picked up, but they let others go. I can see why someone perhaps wants to keep a distance and be formal in a relationship like cleaner and employer but it ought to be equal. If you want to be Ms Smith to the cleaner then you can't call her Mary - it needs to be Ms Jones.

I am still waiting with interest for someone to tell me why we actually need a title.

I suspect that it is nothing to do with gender but all to do with status - which is why the Quakers don't need it.

Mehitabel "I can see why someone perhaps wants to keep a distance and be formal in a relationship like cleaner and employer but it ought to be equal"

it is, as far as I'm concerned. If I expected someone to call me Ms Achieve I wouldn't call them by their first name.

in terms of "need" I accept that some people won't want the formality I like in certain situations but I still think children need to call their teachers something other than their first name. Fine if teachers call the children Mr or Ms Surname too.

That was my point , achieve , if I call my hairdresser Emma I can't expect Mrs or Ms back.

Children and schools is an exception, but that is about the only place I have needed a title. I now really like working with children and not being a teacher and just having a first name.
You can keep it for schools.

I never use any title for children- seems silly and probably dates back to the days of servants- so all to do with status.

I use Dr.

If I wasn't Dr. I'd use Ms. I don't see why my marital status is anyone's business.

A surprising number of computer systems fill this in as default male though. I was once almost refused entry to a flight because 'I'd put I was the wrong gender' on the booking. I hadn't, their system filled all Dr./prof etc out as male. Can't remember which holiday company it was, but sexist bastards! I was absolutely fucking livid.

I would be livid as well, Skipton, that is beyond infuriating. They must have come across it a million times as well...?

Nooka, automatic wasn't quite the right word (by me). I meant that it was something like as "expected" as saying please and thank you. Over the recent past it's becoming less expected.

My uncle didn't believe my friend when she told him at my wedding I was keeping my own name. For him, it was so expected (that's not quite a perfect word either) that he thought she was joking.

Mehitabel, I think a couple of posters have said titles are necessary for them in formal situations; most are probably in agreement with you that perhaps titles could be shed altogether. Certainly my hairdresser and I use each other's first names!

Anyone for Comrade?

BertrandRussel Yes, Kyrie/ Kyria is used for all social classes these days. All adult women are Kyria.

And women keep their own surnames on marriage, as I said previously. The couple sign an agreement prior to getting married, designating which surname any children of the marriage will have. I was required to sign such an agreement.

Whereas I couldn't care less who knows my marital status I would be livid in Skiptons case. It is like me mentioning a poster called Captain and assumptions that all captains are male!