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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:17

Feminism is about more than choice

What is it then? Purporting to know what's best for other women?

Women - believe it or not- are perfectly able to make choices without men or feminists telling them what's in their best interests.

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:18

I can't see why swapping to doing what other women tell you that you must do is any advantage!
Why do you need a title? They appear to be more trouble than they are worth.

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:20

To clarify
Doing what men tell you to do is wrong.
Doing what women tell you to do is right.
Having free choice and deciding for yourself is wrong - unless you make the right choice.

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:21

I think that's about it in a nutshell Mehitabel Grin

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:25

You can be sure it won't be SirChenjin. Grin

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2015 15:26

Just because a woman makes a choice does not make it a feminist choice. Women can make choices which are anti feminist, and perpetuate sexism in society. Nothing stopping them making those choices- but they are not feminist choices.

Reinforcing the view that women are given status or value by their relationships with men, or even just should be identified in terms of those relationships is not a feminist thing to do.

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:29

So feminism is anti free choice?

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:30

No, I suspect not Mehitabel. I'm sure someone is about to explain very slowly where I've simply misunderstood, and will probably ask me (with a tilt of the head) why I think that might be the case Grin

And on that note, I'm off to pressure wash the driveway. Live at the Chens is a rollercoaster ride, I tell you.

SenecaFalls · 08/08/2015 15:35

It's not about telling other women what to do. For me it is about trying to convince society as a whole that certain practices undermine equality for women. European societies have adopted practices that no longer identify women in terms of their marriage status. Even the US, whose political center is farther to the right than the UK's, has moved pretty far in that direction with the use of Ms.

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:35

And there it is...Grin Suddenly the driveway doesn't seem very appealing.

So, feminism is about making choices on behalf of other women for the sake of the greater good?!! Allowing women to make a free choice as to whether they identify themselves as married or not (via Ms/Mrs/Miss) is not good enough?

And some feminists wonder why other women don't identify as feminists

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:35

Women are the worst at making assumptions.
A name changer once had a spell as Captain something or other on here and of course 'Captain' had to be a man. Hmm She got a hard time.
Only a short while ago we had someone saying Mr Russell because 'Betrand' must be a man. I knew perfectly well it was Ms Russell. ( definitely not Mrs!)
We all assume too much.
At least one person has assumed I am a downtrodden wife and will be found on relationship boards!

Mehitabel6 · 08/08/2015 15:37

In a nutshell SirChenjin - who could be a man or a woman.

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:37

European societies have adopted practices that no longer identify women in terms of their marriage status

Examples?

Ms is perfectly acceptable here - you must move in very narrow circles not to experience that. Society is not a homogenous mass - it's made up of individuals making individual choices.

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:39

It's funny you should say that Mehitabel - my gender/sex/whatever has been called into question on several occasions on MN Grin

SenecaFalls · 08/08/2015 15:40

I believe in that in France and Germany adult women are called Madame and Frau. Am I wrong in that?

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:43

As are married women.

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2015 15:43

"So, feminism is about making choices on behalf of other women for the sake of the greater good?!!"

That's not what I said. Or at least, it's not what I meant!

Do you think that any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice? Do you think it's possible for a woman to make a choice that's anti feminist?

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:45

And there's the questions....

Given that I've already said that feminism (to me) is about personal choice, you see if you can answer those questions.

AmeliaNeedsHelp · 08/08/2015 15:50

Surely it's not hard to grasp that a feminist can make anti-feminist choices? That some of our choices perpetuate a system where women aren't equal to men?

Tbh, my choices to be 'given away' by my dad and take DP's surname on marriage are pretty anti-feminist. I'm sure there are feminists who think I shouldn't make those choices. But I am quite surprised to find that there are people who think that everything is all fine and dandy as long as I'm allowed to make a choice.

Because choices aren't made in a vacuum and my 'free' choice isn't actually that free at all.

SirChenjin · 08/08/2015 15:51

Right - driveway, driveway....(in the absence of a man to do it for me, natch)

LassUnparalleled · 08/08/2015 15:51

Feminism as far as I know, as I don't particularly call myself a feminist, is not anti-choice but as others have said just because a choice is made by a woman it does not mean the choice is positive for women in society generally or even simply neutral for women. Certain choices perpetuate and reinforce systems and attitudes which are negative.

I personally , for example, am firmly in the "working in the sex industry is not an empowering feminist choice and has a negative impact on all women" camp.

I think most people would agree no titles would be best. However if we are to have titles (and I think they can be useful as otherwise there is nothing between the overly chummy first name or the stilted "First name and Last name") then I would prefer the title is as neutral as "Mr" . All that tells me is the person is a man. There is no scope for assumptions or preconceptions.

SenecaFalls · 08/08/2015 15:52

As are married women

And unmarried women. I would have no problem being Mrs if that were the title for all adult women.

LassUnparalleled · 08/08/2015 15:58

I believe in that in France and Germany adult women are called Madame and Frau. Am I wrong in that?

You are not wrong. Like you I occasionally get called "Mrs Unparalleled" (usually by the juniors at my hairdresser's as unlike my actual hairdresser they don't know my first name and probably think they are being polite. I don't correct them as it would make them feel uncomfortable.)

If Mrs were the equivalent of Frau or Madame then there wouldn't be an issue.

BertrandRussell · 08/08/2015 15:58

"And there's the questions....

Given that I've already said that feminism (to me) is about personal choice, you see if you can answer those questions."

It really wasn't intended to be a question but a genuine one. I disagree profoundly with you if you think that feminism just means making choices. What if a woman decides not to employ women because she thinks they are less capable than men? What if a woman denigrates another woman because of her personal appearance? What if a woman pays a female employee less than a male one? All personal choices. But are they feminist ones?

HowDdo2You · 08/08/2015 16:00

What an interesting thread.

Aged 18 I selected MS. I stayed a MS until I was pregnant. The prompt to change came about due to the purchase of a cooker. Grin I realised I would be gossiped about and didn't want that for us.

We had a joint bank account in Mr exh and Ms Maiden name. Upon purchasing a cooker from the vendors of a property separately via cheque the rumours started. My new neighbour asked why I wore a wedding ring...

I promptly changed my name to Mrs exh's name and have been stuck with it due to social pressure on myself and my children Blush

I have been waiting for my youngest to reach maturity and I am going back to Ms Maiden name. Smile

I am quite shocked by a pp who has had difficulty changing their name back. What's that all about?