Demanding job

[FayKorgasm]

Not a TAAT but inspired by years of threads. Frequently I read threads on here by women posters who have husbands or partners who do the very bare minimum of child rearing. One of the reasons given is the all inclusive Demanding Job. Extra points for Long Hours in aforementioned Demanding Job.
It really gives me the rage. Lots of women work in Demanding Jobs and yet come home and just bloody get on with it but men are excused the daily drudge because of it.

Totally with you OP. Drives me nuts too. WRT 'men don't see mess' I htink it's bullshit: anyone noticed how they seem to see it if they think it's someone else's job to tidy/clean?

Or when they think it actually is their job - like on their cars.

Most men I've ever met, are almost OCD obsessive about keeping their cars clean. They see the slightest speck on it and immediately wipe it off/ clean it up.

They're quick enough to see dirt then.

It's actually astonishing that anyone would come to a thread on the feminist board to seriously suggest that men are the domestic line managers.

Nah. Not if you know it's Larry.

Is a SAHp (parent, not mother) a job or not? If it is and deserves respect, there also have to be standards attached.

If the working parent has zero say in the standards, this seems very unfair to me as he/she has to meet standards at work. In addition, the reality is that the SAHp feels they should have a say in the working parent's life (whether to go for promotions, to work longer hours) etc. they feel that these are family decisions as they affect the whole family. This is true but so does the work of the SAHp.

I am not advocating a boss/employee relationship. However, in the same way a working parent with zero drive it ambition will quickly lose his/her partner's respect, so will a SAHp who feels that their partner has no say over what happens in the home.

I clearly am speaking from my own perspective/demographic but seeing SAHp (of school aged children) using a combination of gym/personal trainers and school committees as a substitute for work while choosing to sah is not a healthy relationship model for many.

I think you're constructing a straw man argument to avoid talking about the central issue of shared housework, larry. Whether it's a job or not has nothing to do with whether both parties should pull their own weight at home and avoid treating home like a hotel and the SAHP like a domestic servant.

If we take an averagely demanding WOHP job, they are out of the house for, say, 12 hours. They sleep for 8. This leaves 4 full hours plus the weekend for doing household tasks. Standards can therefore be jointly maintained because both are contributing.

As an aside, if SAHP were a job, the clue is in the name - it's Stay At Home Parent, not Stay At Home Skivvy. So for the 12 hours they are parenting, not vacuuming.

As a further aside, I think it's very sad that the construct that you turn to in order to give wifework more social cachet is "working for the man". I know, let's give wifework the same titles as traditionally male roles, ie let's call it a "job" conveniently overlooking that SAHP is work that is very far from having all of the protections that brings, like a salary and employment law and a pension and so on.

If a child is at school, it is physically impossible to parent for 12 hours. Even if a child is not, 12 hours per day of active parenting is not healthy for a child. Every single job has its 'shit' elements. You cannot just biece you are above them and opt out.

A fair standard is equal free time for both partners. I think that it is hard to argue with this.

A fair standard is equal free time for both partners. I think that it is hard to argue with this.

So your argument is that if you are a stay at home parent, you are effectively employed by the parent working outside the home. If your children are in school, you are expected to fulfil other duties mandated by your contracting partner to an acceptable level as decided by the contracting partner. Failure to demonstrate that you've been busy in work-related activities will what? Garner the traditional beating? A particularly good job will earn a twenty to be spent on something nice?

No, read my posts. Not going to reiterate. However, what is your standard? Nothing? SAHp has zero responsibility to their partner regardless of age of children or other commitments?

They have zero responsibility to do jobs that are solely for the benefit of the other partner. They have zero responsibility to do a job to a standard above that which they feel is reasonable.

Just as they have zero pension, zero redundancy, zero paid holiday.

The benefits of being a SAHP are that you get to make your hours around your responsibilities. In exchange for 12 hours of looking after a 1 year old, you get a few hours free once they're in school (but still on call - a responsibility for which there are generally further perks if you are WOH). You never get to say 'sorry, I've had enough, I'm going home' you can't quit. You are where the responsibility ends. In return for some freedom to go to the gym (after 5 years of service), you tie yourself down to being on call 24 hours, to perform any task required. You tell me how appealing that would be as an out of home job prospect?

There is no job like being a parent - even a nanny gets to clock out at the end of the day.

Oh, and unlike a WOH job, where your experience and pay will rise with your time served, your perceived value will actually be falling, all the while you do this.

They have zero responsibility to do jobs that are solely for the benefit of the other partner. They have zero responsibility to do a job to a standard above that which they feel is reasonable.

'Just as they have zero pension, zero redundancy, zero paid holiday.'

No, they don't. They generally get to share 50% of the working partner's pension and redundancy. You cannot claim equity in terms of respect if you are not prepared to agree to equity in terms of responsibility. This is where 'feminism' goes beyond fairness (equal free time, equal money, equal responsibility) and strays into a ridiculous degree of entitlement.

can you detail your disciplinary procedures should the sahp not fulfil the terms of the contract, Larry ?

You really expect that someone being outside the home for 12 hours or more should come home and start doing housework where there is a stay at home parent?

And "being on call" for children at school prevents the sahp doing anything else?

I agree with Larry there are ridiculous degrees of entitlement being suggested here.

I work with someone whose wife hasn't worked since their children were born. The children are both at school, no special needs. They live in a smallish modern house in a town. He's at work until at least 8, frequently later, with a 1 hour commute home.

Are you seriously suggesting that she cannot fit in keeping the house in a reasonable standard in the hours between dropping the children off at school and collecting them ?

AF,

That is a really good question. I guess that the responsibilities would be set in a joint discussion (for both the WOHP and SAHP).

If these (jointly agreed) responsibilities were not met, then there are several possibilities.One possibility would be role reversal. Another would be the SAHP having to consider getting paid work to pay for a nanny and/or cleaner. Clearly, again, this would be subject to joint discussion and agreement.

Simple question to you. If one partner is working all hours god sends, is it fair (in terms of equality) the other partner having several completely free hours every single day?

I wish people would stop going on about WOHP roles as if they have no down time while away from the home. And no capacity to help out while at home.

My day (as aforementioned, in a full time heavily demanding and stressful job that usually has me out of the house for 12-13 hours a day) is not go go go 100% of the time. I have an hour to sit and work quietly, check emails etc, on the train in each direction. I have a lunch break most days for at least half an hour. I chat to colleagues in passing throughout the day.

And you know what? I still manage to do things like help clean the kitchen after dinner, tidy DD's mess from the day, do washing etc. Because I'm not an entitled arse and because I don't see DH as my servant.

Larry when you are saying that the SAHP has several hours of free time, I imagine you are only talking about a parents of school age children aren't you?
And I also imagine that in the 'working hours' of the SAHP you also count the hours spent ferrying everyone at afterschool clubs, friends parties at weekends etcetc? As well as any hours during the night as the WOHP can't possibly get up as he has such a demanding job?

Actually it would quite interesting to count the number of hours that a SAHP really has for themselves once you have removed all the 'extras' at night and weekend. Woud they really have more free time and less working hours than the SAHP? hmm... I wonder.... actually I'm pretty sure that up to about 8yo, the SAHP would STILL work more hours than the WOHP as their involvement at weekends etc seems to always be 'more' than the one of the WOHP

I'm also wondering what are the epxrectation of the WOHP and what are the disciplinary procedure for not being 'up to his/her job'.

What do you think? Does ot mean that women could be entitled to tell their DH off for not putting the dishes away? Or for not doing bedtime with their dcs?

A marriage based on that sort of idea would be a very sad marriage indeed.

What I found from my short experience of being out of work (unemployed & jobhunting rather than sahp by choice) with DCs at school and DP working standard hours was that I had a lot less 'free' time than you'd imagine.

For a start it'd be close to half 9 before I'd get back in. Then I'd have breakfast. I found that because I was 'off' other people expected me to be free to run errands for them. So often I'd be driving around picking up/dropping off this and that for DM & DP. Then there'd be putting more petrol in the car and shopping. Drive back home, have lunch. Mail would have arrived so that might take a couple of phone calls. If the school called they'd expect me to be immediately available for a pick up. I wouldn't have much time for online jobhunting/doing apps before it'd be 2pm and I'd have to drive over for the school run (unless I got there by 2.40 there's be no parking spaces). Back after 3 then they'd be hungry and there might be stuff in school bags to deal with. Homework. DP home, dinner. The day disappears. With nothing to show for it.

I'll admit I'm just not suited to that type of lifestyle. I need a much more rigid routine. I didn't find it a pleasurable leisured lifestyle.

I am not a SAHP, larry, for the record

I agree with you that that both parents (where there are two in FT residence) should have equal leisure time

what makes my heart sink is your references to "acceptable standards" and an unsaid but definite undertone of control in your posts

How many SAHMs do you know that actually are skiving off all day, and leaving the house in a shit tip?

Going by the vast majority of threads on here, most SAHMs are fighting a daily uphill battle, skivying around, tidying up after children and grown men, who leave it all to her.

They are doing their best to meet an arbitrary standard of tidiness and cleanliness day in, day out.

Throw in a husband who expects this standard of cleanliness from her, and you're not exactly envisaging a couple sailing off into blissful old age as devoted life partners and friends, are you?

But by all means, go ahead and expect your 'standards'. Remind your wife of them, and reprimand her when she slips. Throw in a yearly, or 6-monthly, appraisal process, if you think it might yield better results.

"You really expect that someone being outside the home for 12 hours or more should come home and start doing housework where there is a stay at home parent? "

Why not? If the SAHP has been looking after a baby, a toddler and a school age child in those hours, there may well not have been a spare moment to do any housework.

Although of course, we're not supposed to have more than 2 kids anymore are we, so in future it might just be the toddler and the baby.

I know that when my DC's were under 1, it was actually a real stretch to fit in any housework at all until they'd gone to bed and it was only when both of them were at school, that some time was freed up to do housework - perish the thought that I might use some of that time for a scheduled break, such as a WOHP might be entitled to.

I'm not sure many people would be happy to have their partner come in to their workplace to comment on whether they're doing their job to an acceptable standard.

Can I just point out housework/childcare doesn't just happen whilst the WOHP is at work. What about the clearing of dinner plates, washing up, tidying the kitchen, tidying toys away, perhaps putting another load of washing in, cleaning the bath, putting the kids to bed, packing bags for the next day, preparing lunches etc etc etc?

And children aren't in school every week. A quarter of the year they aren't even in school (if we are talking about that age range).

Are you seriously suggesting that a SAHP should have to do all that housework by themselves whilst WOHP puts their feet up watching them?

Because I'd like you to tell that to my DH. Really. Go on tell him why he will be running around for most of the evening why I'll be watching telly. And he'll tell you to fuck off.

And as for acceptable standards...

grin]

Good luck with that one!