Demanding job

[FayKorgasm]

Not a TAAT but inspired by years of threads. Frequently I read threads on here by women posters who have husbands or partners who do the very bare minimum of child rearing. One of the reasons given is the all inclusive Demanding Job. Extra points for Long Hours in aforementioned Demanding Job.
It really gives me the rage. Lots of women work in Demanding Jobs and yet come home and just bloody get on with it but men are excused the daily drudge because of it.

Shocked by the advice hels received from the councillor.

What really annoys me with some of my friends is the way taking the bin out is discussed as though it is the hardest job ever.
As if taking the bin out is as difficult and time consuming as cooking the evening meal every night.

Some counsellors are crap. I know a Relate counsellor in RL who talks about her clients (anonymously but still unprofessional IMO), has a clear "staying together is best" agenda, and continues seeing people as couples where there is abuse involved.

BaCP accredited counsellors have more training at least.

Someone upthread argued that with school age DC it's fair for the parent (for which I read woman) who works the least hours or lower paid job to do more at home. IMO that ignores the social context in which couples make these decisions, eg I know LOTS of women who would prefer to do more paid WOH but can't because their Hs and/or their H's employers simply won't compromise, eg on travel, long hours.

I actually think that Larry raises a couple of interesting points (and other I disagree with :))

I think that the idea of treating HW as you would a job and that needs to be done to a certain standard, I actually agree with. I would also put childrearing in there too. I would because it's not possible to tell my DH that being a SAHM, my job is to look after the dcs, therefore I expect him to muck in when he comes back because I've worked the same way he did, and then to not expect that job to be done to a certain standard.
The issue I have is when the standards are set up by the man with no input from the woman and that it's the man who gets to tell his DW off 'for not tidying up well enough'. I don't think anyon would imagine a woman setting up the standard for DIY, gardening or whatever else and tell the DH off if it's not good enough!
That's where there is a BIG difference with a job in a company. There is no boss to tell you how a job should be done and it certainly isn't the role of the man in the house!
So YY to do things to a certain standard but a bigger YY to agree together about what are these standards and what is manageable or not (ie what is actually possible to do in the day when you look after a baby. What should take priority etc...).

I do agree that there are plenty of threads on MN with women saying that men should be working hard (or harder) to provide for their family. This is rooted in the familiar patriarcal organisation and we, women, do play that game too. So expect men to 'provide' whilst our role isn't to provide but to keep the house running.
The issue is when you go out of the 'usual' organisation but expect to keep all the rest the same. ie when women work FT, long hours, demanding job but their DH refuses to step up to do some HW. Or when for men decide that they do not want to high power job that is bringing plenty financially but is very demanding but it means that their DW has to step up 'to provide' too and it usually met with ressentment on the side of the women. Just look at the threads about women wondering if they should go for x job 'because they would have to spend les time with their dc' even though it's an 'easy' 9-5 type of job

I don't see many of those kinds of threads fanofhermione, just the odd few where the DH wants to do something that would significantly reduce his income or can't hold down a job.

I do see more threads and discussions in RL where women talk about not doing paid work - or more paid work - because this wouldn't be good for the DC. Often there is the assumption there that men will continue to work FT+.

I haven't seen any threads where women are complaining about their partners not working hard enough unless the bloke is 1) a lazy cocklodger or 2) intent on some selfish harebrained scheme or activity designed to benefit only himself

I don't recall a single thread where a woman has complained, apropos of nothing, that her DH should work harder to provide or go for a promotion.

Let alone one where others have come on to agree with her.

hels I had the coming home to a shit tip. I walked back out the door and went to the bar. Told him I wasn't coming home until he had cleaned up. I was so furious and told his best friend what had happened a couple of weeks later. His best friend told him infront of me that he was losing respect for DH as a real man supports his family.

If I were you I would be looking to ask him to leave. I told DH that without him I'd reduce my workload by 25%.

How depressing that some men assume that women not wanting sex because they don't feel desire (because who can feel desire for someone who treats them like a skivvy?) is the same as women withholding sex they actually want out of some kind of malicious, controlling motive.

Ye gods.

The idea of withholding sex is a common trope - as if women only ever have sex out of a sense of duty anyway..

Not wanting sex because you're exhausted from all the work, been up all night with the baby, and are just really annoyed at your partner for not pulling their weight? Inconceivable, you must be doing it on purpose to bully him. He has neeeeeeeeds you know.

It's amazing the number of men who just cannot connect the dots.

Their sex life has died a death because their wife is exhausted, often unfulfilled, and utterly resentful. But they just cannot, for the life of them, work out how that state of affairs has come about.

They do not see for a second, that a little kindness, a little teamwork, a little less 'demanding of certain levels of tidiness' would (if it's not too late) turn things completely around.

The level of insight (and self-awareness: 'I have contributed hugely to this') is non-existent.

And then of course, you nip over to the relationships board, and you can see the aftermath that often occurs in this situation. The sort of men who can't connect the dots are often also the sort of men who then seek to get their needs met outside the marriage, so it's a double betrayal.

Ugh, both sexes can lose desire for any number of reasons, especially resentment. C'est la vie. Sex is not a right anyway. I never brought sex into this conversation. It is not really relevant,

It most certainly is relevant. It is completely relevant, if the impact of one's behavior is causing a cornerstone of a healthy relationship to deteriorate beyond repair.

I brought sex into the conversation for a very specific reason. We're not talking about a blip in an otherwise healthy relationship, are we?

But of course, you would say that.

And I'm guessing you still think it's OK to 'expect a certain standard of tidiness' from your minion.

Correct, you are guessing. This is a 'he said', 'she said' type of argument and depends on individual circumstances.

She said: ' he treats me like a dogsbody, expects me to do drab housework to a certain standardAnd still expects me to desire him'

He said: ' I work 11 hours a day for a demanding boss to bring plenty of money to support my family. My wife has been to the gym, met s friend for coffee and spent an hour on mumsnet. And I come home to a shot heap. Why should I respect and desire her?'

And, normally, the truth lies somewhere in between. I know both types of relationships (and some useless stay at home dads too).

If men don't like the fact that women sometimes have some free time when they're SAHMs, maybe they should make more effort to support their DPs' careers when the babies come along.

They could for example, go part time themselves, do flexible working, ensure that their DPs can go back to work and actually function there. Most men don't bother to ask for part time hours when they have kids, do they? They drift into "traditional" roles, then get irritated that women who don't want to spend their time doing housework but have lost the marketability they had before children, sometimes do things they actually might enjoy in the daytime instead of cleaning up the house. The uppity princesses.

Ask,
Sure, and these high flying career women have no say in the matter. You must know some very passive women, they bear no correlation to the women that I know. You have a very poor opinion of womankind.

The 'standards' you speak of are, in my household, entirely self-imposed. I like my house to be clean and tidy.
We both work hard, long days in our jobs. I come home and start again - with everything at home that needs to be done. DH comes home and collapses in a heap with a beer. Whilst I feed children, do bedtime routine, cook our dinner, in between sorting washing and dishwasher and tidying up. And then he wonders why I'm too exhausted for sex by bedtime. Resentment from him, resentment from me.

Yeah, sure Larry, you've rumbled me, I hate women really and think we're all pathetic.

It's not necessarily high flyers actually. They're usually quite good at hanging onto their careers if they want because they can outsource domestic work. It tends to be people further down the career ladder.

Also no point reminding you that no-one makes choices in a vacuum and that women's choices are constrained a) by the choices of the men they live with b) by their employers' choices and c) by the differential power relations between them.

I think women's choices are also constrained by how they are socialised, ie socialised as carers for the family.

For example, I currently feel very guilty because DH is doing all nights with DD (which he's only been doing for a week, and she's 19 months old). And yet:

• I am the sole household breadwinner
• I went back to work when DD was 5.5 months but still breastfed her until 10 months so I did all nights until then
• DH is a SAHD
• My job is insanely demanding, particularly at the moment, and I have about 3 hours commute each day on top of that

And yet I'm still conflicted about the fact that we're not sharing nights.

Sweet, you have a lot on your plate, hang in there! in your shoes most men (unlikely to have done as much night work and obviously no breastfeeding) would certainly NOT feel guilty!

Thanks Duck, I know I shouldn't feel guilty. It makes no sense but I do. DH very rarely feels guilty about anything and freely admits this.

Oh hush Basil dear, you know feminism is only about high flying women, not the vast majority of women who stay at home because it's not worth them going back to work, because their DPs seem to think that the little woman pays for the childcare with her wages....

Anyway, we know that SAHM sit on their arses all day and eat chocolate, or meet friends for coffee... because that's what the vast majority of women have the disposable income to do. Oh no, hang on a minute......

Larry - you're the one who introduced an example of a dysfunctional relationship (equating an intimate, loving relationship with an employer-employee scenario) into the thread. I merely responded by outlining the consequences of same.

Of course resentment can be a two-way, gender-irrelevant street. You're merely proving my point. Actions have consequences, which can be fundamentally detrimental to a relationship. I was simply responding to the scenario you seem to think is OK.

And no, I wasn't guessing what you think. Your exact wording is there in black and white, further up the thread:

There are also a lot of complaints about husbands (generally) demanding certain standards of tidiness. I am not sure what is wrong with that as the working parent has to meet certain standards every day too and the SAHp gets to share the fruits of him meeting these standards.

I put it to you that a couple, where the woman is a SAHM, might find more lasting happiness if the husband avoids treating her like his employee, and more as an equal partner in a team.

I "see" mess far less than DH; he has experienced very cluttered houses and is quite sensitive to them. I don't think it's in the chromosomes...

My experience is an exception to the norm and other women are when they see it in action.

For a start I didn't identify with my DM growing up. I was always told I was like my df so expected to grow up and have his life (woh & minimal childcare/housework). DP grew up without any father figure so never 'learned' gendered domestic roles.

I was a ft working single mum (fairly well off) when we met. I was clear that him moving in wouldn't mean I'd ever be doing any chores for him.

We now have an almost complete gender reversal of the 1950s stereotype role division. I work to pay for the lifestyle he wants. I don't even know how our his washing machine works.

It works for us. The place isn't as spotless as a 'wife' would keep it but I'm happy working and not ever having to think about dirty dishes and he has no career ambitions whatsoever, preferring to spend hours pottering in the kitchen.