genderqueer

[BrookeDavies]

I read a Jack Monroe article today where she talked of how as a child she wanted to do 'boy' things / wear 'boy' clothes and ergo be a boy. But now, she no longer wants to be a boy/man as she's comfortable with who she is as an individual.

I feel so heartened by her story and people like Tyler Ford and even Miley Cirus. It feels so much more in line with my own view that gender is a social construct.

Personally, I hope that this encourages kids who feel a bit different to learn to accept, embrace and be who they are without the need for difficult and intrusive surgery and drugs.

Lass so, you did have to be. No shocks there. If you weren't posting in bad faith you would, like anyone with a sense of decorum, simply have taken the information on board and apologised, you didn't, hence me drawing the only possible conclusion.

Cote, dead naming is a 'thing' apparently. Calling Caitlyn J by their given name is supposedly as 'erasing' as misgendering them. Given MN's views on misgendering, I simply pointed out that trans folks feel like this. I don't endorse either view if I'm honest, I was helping Lass not to be deleted and she reacted in her predictable manner.

I'd prefer it if we were still able to discuss the issues, which can only happen if people play by the arguably arbitrary rules.

If someone has legally changed their name, you would of course refer to them by their new name. Like Lurcio said, it isn't odd to mention the old name when relevant to a topic such as "Wow, she looks kind of strong for a woman, and can you believe she easily beat Paula Radcliffe's marathon record?".

Calling this "dead naming" feels like more drama queen behaviour. Bruce Jenner didn't die. He changed his appearance and his name and now asks to be treated as a woman with the pronoun "she". I have no problem with doing as asked, but let's not pretend that Bruce is somehow dead and this totally new adult Caitlyn has magically materialised in his place.

"a time they were forced to live as something they were not"

Forced to live as something they were not, no less.

I would like to know who forced Bruce Jenner to thrust his penis into various women that led to the birth of all those children.

Calling this "dead naming" feels like more drama queen behaviour.

Wholeheartedly agree. It's the language used by TAs however, and I think exposing that use of language to people outside their bubble is useful, no? Also agree about the lack of actual death or even existential death that happens.

Arf at degree in microbiology. I have a degree in psychology but dont feel qualified to start pinning down definitively what is sex and what is gender other than male sex is simply the one with the smaller gametes an female is the one with larger gamete, so a biological distinction that comes with no baggage around expected appearance or behaviours.

Gender is what we think male or female means in terms masculine or feminine behaviours, tendencies etc.

You seem to think transgender is sone extreme form of homosexuality. It isn't. Plenty of people born with xy chromosomes, male by sex, sexually attracted to women self identify as not male but female and declare themselves to be, effectively, a lesbian in mans body. So its not extension of homosexuality. Its separate from it.

Not all effeminate men are gay, you know.

I may be completely off base, but having watched that Louis Theroux thing, and read some stories online, and looked at the information others have posted on Iran it really seems that 'forced' is the right word for some trans people - some trans people really have had some horrific things said and done to them by their parents and society around them, and I think that sometimes we forget that other people can hold some really abhorrent opinions on this (well, we don't, we know people can be awful). Not every kid grows up like the boy and his mum who I was just behind at the cash machine, playing with his Elsa doll.

There are many kids who have been forced down a gender path, sometimes quite violently, and completely unscientifically I feel like I hear that more from trans than from non-trans.

I can see that if you don't conform, that you might be in for a penny, in for a pound, whereas with a less judgemental upbringing it might not be an issue at all.

Can't every agree please that
Sex of person = Y chromosome or penis or vagina
Gender of person = Identification to socially constructed norms of male or female.

Transgender, to my knowledge has nothing to do with sexuality until the said person transitions, then has to change their sexuality to fit ie "now female lesbian previously hetero male"

The stats show that usually, FTM are attracted to females.

FTM transitioning is arguably connected to a fetishism that involves not being able to orgasm unless the man believes he is female, and therefore 'penetratable' - called autogynephilia.

Transitioning is connected to sexuality, but could be described as a paraphilia rather than a sexuality.

MTF not FTM!

Male to Female...(have to say it to understand it)

"Dead naming" !?

Agree with Cote - that is drama queeny and delusional.

It's pretty offensive to the people in your life such as your wife and kids too. Reminds me of certain transwomen who have raped and or murdered women, than transition, and then try to claim that Bob the murdering misogynist rapist no longer exists and that the "woman" who is now in his place is a totally different person even though we are expected to believe that Bob was always a woman/girl.

The name thing resonates with me a bit because of women's history - that we're expected to give up our name when we marry (or which country was it where people just didn't say their mother's names in public)

By taking a new name and declaring the old person dead, it feels very similar to erasing a married woman by making her take her husband's name.

Or that might be me being over-dramatic - it's a bit close to home at the moment.

Baking What about your apology to me? You launched in to a tirade about how rude I had been when clearly Ford is not hiding his /their former name and it is important to the discussion given OP's misunderstanding.

Baking What is your point at 11.20 supposed to mean?

You rant at me but you describe the non use of the former name as "drama queen behaviour" which should be exposed outwith their bubble

"By taking a new name and declaring the old person dead, it feels very similar to erasing a married woman by making her take her husband's name"

Does anyone claim that the single woman dies upon marriage and from her ashes gets born a totally different (married) woman?

Do married women get offended if you say "Oh her name was xxx before marriage"?

I don't know what you are talking about here, tbh.

No, no-one claims that, but how many women feel they lose their identity when they become married, and become just 'Mrs X' or 'Ys mum' Some women do get offended if they are mis-named, so that's similar, but actually I was meaning that by making this a thing, it's re-enforcing the erasure of a woman's past when they change their name on marriage - which is a choice now, but previously was very much enforced.

I don't want my old self to be dead if I take DP's name, I don't want to be erased. As I said, it's perhaps a bit close to home for me right now. It's probably not a thing at all, and just my head bouncing around things that are happening in my life.

Lass, you're the lawyer, work it out for yourself.

Or, as you're obviously having difficulties with logic, I'll explain it.

MN has a set of rules which we have to abide by when posting. One of those rules is not misgendering people on purpose. Trans activists say that 'dead naming' trans people is as bad as misgendering them. Therefore, it would seem reasonable that MNHQ will view dead naming a trans person in the same light as misgendering them. Pointing this out to you was meant to be helpful to you. Just because you continually post in bad faith doesn't mean that everyone else does.

The fact that MNHQ agrees with Trans activists that being misgendered is a bad thing doesn't mean I agree with that either, however, posting within the arbitrary guidelines seems sensible. The dead naming thing also seems drama queeny to me, however, should MNHQ see it in the same light as they see misgendering, then I would also post within that arbitrary guideline.

Do hope that's explained my "rant" to you. I realise that it's personal for you, but it certainly isn't for anyone else. You're just not that interesting. Sorry.

"a time they were forced to live as something they were not"

Sorry cote, I was trying to explain what I thought dead naming was, not saying that these are my beliefs.

I'm not blaming you for this nonsense. Just pointing out that it is nonsense.

"Trans activists say that 'dead naming' trans people is as bad as misgendering them. Therefore, it would seem reasonable that MNHQ will view dead naming a trans person in the same light as misgendering them."

Thankfully, MNHQ don't toe the transactivist line. That is how we can question their forceful assertion that "transwomen are women, just like any other woman", for example.

I know what it means and I can see the point of not being referred to in the old name.

I mentioned the old name because Ford does not seem to be hiding it and the OP did not realise Ford has transitioned which meant a lot of the opening post didn't really make sense.

Baking claim she was just trying to be helpful when ticking me off to avoid me getting deleted is disingenuous . If that is what she meant she could have said so and clearly MNHQ deleted Cote's post but not mine.

However given that Baking agrees that dead naming is "drama queen behaviour " her attitude towards trans people seems very disrespectful.

You just can't stop, can you?

I was not lying. Stop tarring everyone with your brush. My abject apologies for MNHQ's policy being illogical.

And, just for info, my attitude toward trans people is just fine thanks. My attitude toward trans activists is necessarily as respectful as theirs is toward women.

My post was deleted? Why?

In that post, I was only asking what 'dead naming' was and wondering if it's another accusation to beat us up with.

Very odd.

If 'dead naming' was so offensive and wrong, there would be no discussion at all, from either side, to be had about people like Jenner, because we'd just have to pretend she had no existence prior to that living as a woman, wouldn't we? Hence, no story.

Obviously if john asks that everyone calls him jane, repeatedly calling him john is rude and unnecessary. But pretending there was never a john is just stupid. And referring to John where logical and necessary is not misgendering or being hurtful.

The way this debate keeps throwing up more identities to claim is so frustrating. Each one cements the idea of gender more definitively as it claims to transcend it...

Oo, a random thought re dead naming.

Cheryl cole (now some other name that i cant remember) was no longer a racist after marriage. Cheryl tweedy was the one convicted of a race motivated attack...