"What makes a women" NY Times article

[iisme]

Nothing very new here but it expresses most of my feelings around the trans debates very clearly and well. I want to put it on Facebook but I know it will kick off a shit-storm and I'm not sure I have the strength ...

mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?referrer=&_r=0

Thanks QueenStromba I've come across Mark/Maritza Angelo Cummings from my searches on the internet before and also on the group at www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/

Thanks iisme that is helpful.

Having been a bit waffly in a thread about Feminism elsewhere, I thought it was about time I checked this board out to clarify my thoughts. This thread has been fantastically informative. I have a friend who's a feminist journalist and five/six years ago she was getting a lot of shit on the comments on her article and on twitter for being a "biological determinist" (when did TERF start being used? I don't remember it but in fact I was very taken aback at how vile people were being so might have missed it, not knowing what it meant). I asked her about it out of concern and she just said "no, no, no, don't ever read the comments!" and then we moved onto general talk so I have remained hugely ignorant of this stuff. "The New Backlash" blog was very informative. The page of extremely violent comments about TERFS is unbelievable. Thanks for the insight - I will lurk here more often.

I know my mum is really into energy and stuff. I know that most people on here tend to disbelieve in things like that, which is fair. When I was pregnant we did that dowsing thing, out of fun really, although the dowsing has always been accurate for everything else, it came up with DS being a girl. This was the day we'd had the scan, and XP and I knew, but nobody else did. So it wasn't that thing where you subconsciously know the answer, because it would have been opposite.

And weirdly - I often catch myself "feeling" that DS is a girl. I can't really explain it except that he just sometimes feels like a girl. He is very clearly socialised as a boy, though, he has "typical boy" interests (superheroes, video games and toilet humour), eschews anything pink, is active, noisy, competitive, plays with mostly boys, is very clear that he is a boy and that this gender divide is important to him (though we try to minimise it). Yet to me he sometimes feels like a girl, in an energy sense, I suppose.

I have not and I would not ever mention this to him. Quite possibly it's entirely due to the fact I have a sister but no brothers, so that model for "person smaller than me who is sometimes annoying" is female. But I find it interesting and somewhat strange. Of course, it's very unlikely that he will later identify as transgender. But in some ways, I feel as though I wouldn't be overly surprised. There was a thread a while back about MNers knowing that their children were gay from a young age and I found that very interesting. It's clear to me that DS likes girls, even now. I'm open minded to whatever he is, but I just find it fascinating to watch them discover themselves.

I think the whole issue of trans kids is a massive mine field. I know the parents want to do the best etc. But it is very important to know the facts. This is fascinating. Of course it is not the whole story. But at least it is from people within the transgender and intersex 'community'.

www.youtube.com/watch?t=33&v=G0UVnp8_NGc

My dd is very much what is sometimes called a 'tom boy'. I never call her a tom boy if I can help it. She is who she is. She loves to get dirty and grubby, she hardly ever wears skirts or dresses and almost always wears trousers. But she is a girl. My son wants to wear my lipstick, but he is a boy. I think parents need to be very sure what is going on with their children. I worry sometimes that fear of being gay can lead people to think they may be trans.

Here's an interesting article about women's sports (I say interesting, I probably mean silly).

men in women's sports.

YY definitely. I feel very uncomfortable about people labelling and "accepting" their very young children as trans. Accepting without comment is one thing - celebrating and making it into a big deal can encourage children to really assimilate that into their reality, whereas it might have been a passing phase. I do feel it's really important to emphasise that it's okay to be sporty and a girl, uninterested in fashion and a girl, wear make up and be a boy, basically do whatever you like as your own gender, that's okay. Teenagers are different, although I am also concerned by arguments made in other threads about teens grabbing onto anything, something, to be different but also part of a group. I definitely did that as a teenager and I don't think it's patronising to say that a lot of teenagers go through that phase.

This is a huge problem that I have with the whole gender politics movement - partly that teenage identity thing, but also partly because when I read sites about it where it's the most important thing in somebody's life that they must define their sexuality and/or their gender under one of increasingly multitudes of headings, and this is such a big deal, to the point that they spend hours upon hours contemplating what they are. Talking around the subject, redefining. I can understand the drive to understand where you fit into the world, but I'm just not sure it's healthy so fixate so much on what basically amounts to sex. I mean, surely, just pursue relationships with people you are attracted to when you're both available, and discuss what you both want from a relationship, whether it's exclusivity, casual sex, whatever.

Is that dismissive of me? I just have to admit that sometimes I read these message boards or websites and I just think, what a load of unnecessary angst. Perhaps it's because I had a child young, god knows kids suck your energy and time so that I just don't have time to worry about whether I might be in the miniscule difference between this or that shade of sexuality. I'm sure that people questioning their gender/sexual identity must also have jobs, homes, families, hobbies, but just don't speak directly about them on those forums. It's confusing, though.

italian those interesting links. My understanding (not a scientist) is that you could in theory test a sperm for it's chromosomes and determine whether it will produce a girl or a boy. There may be some cells that are not developed as male or female at a very early stage but they will alway develop according to the chromosomes in the sperm. I think it's misleading to say sex is on a spectrum. I'm not even sure I think a person who can reproduce is truly intersex even if they have some characteristics of the other sex.

Even to the extent there are more degrees of intersex conditions than previously thought, it doesn't mean a person with a penis could ever be a woman. At most:

Penis = male or intersex
Vagina = female or intersex.

Yes I believe you can - you can test at the zygote level. It's very difficult to do, though, and processes which exist only for determining sex are banned in most countries, because of sex selective abortion. I read about a couple who had selective IVF to rule out a genetic condition and their doctor had not obscured the test results which displayed the XX/XY chromosome findings, and they were a little upset by it, because of course not all of the embryos survive, and they found it more upsetting to know that they lost a potential daughter or son rather than it being an identityless embryo.

Right, this thread was linked on Reddit, and I've come over and read through this very carefully and would like to say something from the other side of the table.

I am a 26 year old MtF Transgender person, and whilst I must agree on the general opinon on this the article in question, I cannot agree with a lot of the comments seen here.

I find it very disheartening that a group of people who pride themselves on being very strongly for the cause of equality, would base their opinions of another group purely on the a sensationalist blog, describing the transition of one prominent figure.

The majority of trans people cannot afford tens of thousands of pounds on cosmetic surgery to look like Caitlyn stereotypical look, or be as lucky as Laverne Cox in our natural looks, that article does not accurately describe 99.9% of transgender people in our world, we just want to live out our lives in bodys that match who we are, we want to be acknowledged as who we are, not what we were unlucky enough to be born as.

I cannot begin to describe to someone who has not experienced it how crippling Gender Dysphoria is, or how it feels to undergo the transexual process. To then be segmented because we're not woman enough for you is the ultimate insult (luckily 95% of the time you would have no idea it was a trans person in the first place) how can you claim to want equality but then judge and segment a group based on a biological error baffles me.

The argument that we have with people who are Trans Exclusionary is when that they claim we are just men who want to invade 'womans space', or when they claim that we're just not 'Woman Enough' to be included. The usual arguemnts is 'you've not been woman long enough' or that we somehow enjoyed male privilege pre-transition.

Yes, the majority of MtF trans people grew up being forced to be 'male' and had what little male privilage you can get when you're trans. We were also -for the most part- beaten, raped, excluded and abused because we're different. When you say that a trans woman doesnt belong in womans space because she was forced to live as someone they were not, you are completely invalidating her identity. A Transwoman was never a man, I would trade every moment of what I lived growing up to have what you do by being 'normal'.

Female spaces are not being threatened by Trans people, we are and always have been women. All we want is to be allowed to live our lives in peace with ourselves. If we're abused we want to go somewhere safe, if we're hurt we want to be treated with the same respect anyone else would be. For some facts for you, since the beginning of records there are ZERO incidents of trans women having attacked / perved / invaded women in a womans safe space.

Ever.

That is a verifiable fact, you can feel free to look it up.

This hasnt been the most eloquent of posts because its been a long day and im tired, I dont normally hang about on mumsnet, but im going to follow this and see if there is a constructive conversation to be had.

Finally a question for you, you want trans people to use the toilet of their birth? That means trans men using the womans bathrooms, womans safe spaces etc , for those who are unaware trans men have deep voices, bushy beards and the physical effects of testosterone. Would you rather it that way round?

"since the beginning of records there are ZERO incidents of trans women having attacked / perved / invaded women in a womans safe space.

Ever.

That is a verifiable fact, you can feel free to look it up."

That's just not true. There have been incidents and trans-activists have declared that the perpetrators who have indulged in this behaviour, were never really transwomen at all, they were just pretending.

But how is one to know which is Schroedinger's trans-pretender and which is a real transwoman?

Well one will have doctors documentation, ID and such, one will not.

Trans people are advised from your first therapists appointment to carry your therapists / Doctors letter with you at all times. I 'pass' 100%, but I still carry it with me just in case.

Can you provide details on those cases for me, ive looked but never been able to find any?

^For some facts for you, since the beginning of records there are ZERO incidents of trans women having attacked / perved / invaded women in a womans safe space.

Ever.

That is a verifiable fact, you can feel free to look it up.^

How do you know that has never ever happened...? Strange thing to say really.
Some links from another thread here:

allisonslaw.wordpress.com/2015/03/08/6-3-280-lb-transwoman-and-martial-expert-punches-woman-when-she-questions-his-presence-in-the-womens-bathroom-woman-loses-5-teeth-and-accrues-60000-in-medical-expenses/
kron4.com/2014/03/03/man-dressed-in-barbie-costume-accused-of-rape-attempt-in-store-bathroom/
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pre-op-transsexual-killer-moved-out-2929284
www.huffingtonpost.com/courtney-odonnell/paula-witherspoon-transgender-sex-offender_b_1521938.html
www.theguardian.com/society/2009/sep/04/transexual-prisoner-moved-womens-prison
allisonslaw.wordpress.com/2015/02/24/sex-offender-identifies-as-a-woman-becomes-a-girl-scout-leader-and-sexually-assault-young-girls/

When you say that a trans woman doesnt belong in womans space because she was forced to live as someone they were not, you are completely invalidating her identity.

When you, as someone who is not a biological woman, try to force biological women to share their safe spaces with you because you have chosen to ignore their definition of "woman" in terms of how they self-identify (ie a biological one) you are completely invalidating their identity.

Don't you see how ridiculous your argument about identity is?? No one wins this fight.

How do you know that has never ever happened...? Strange thing to say really.
Some links from another thread here: [Snip]

Only one of these links has a transgender person attacking another person in a 'womans space' and from the description in the article she was defending herself after the toilet door was kicked in, if a woman kicked the toilet door in while you were peeing would you not? (and no i'm not agreeing with her actions before you try and twist it to vilify me)

When you, as someone who is not a biological woman, try to force biological women to share their safe spaces with you because you have chosen to ignore their definition of "woman" in terms of how they self-identify (ie a biological one) you are completely invalidating their identity.

Don't you see how ridiculous your argument about identity is?? No one wins this fight.

I'm not sure I understand your argument here, In what way is my presence in that space invalidating someone else who is there's identity? I am not forcing them to leave or in any way change who they are to accommodate me.

Also how do you identify 'Biological woman', I have breasts, the same muscle structure as any other woman, I have a slightly bigger shoulder frame, but small than my mothers. Unless you want to crawl down my pants and find a flaccid bit of meat waiting to be removed, you could not tell that I am transgender from looking at me.

Oh dear... will more redditors be coming over? Just so I can send out a troll klaxon to the moderators?

I understand that you feel as if you were born in the wrong body,Nymia, but feelings aren't facts. Your verifiable facts are also not facts. No one is invalidating yours or anyone else's identity, you are Nymia, transwoman, and that's great.

I will stand beside you in your fight to gain better access to therapy and surgery. I will stand beside you in your fight to get better services and recognition for transwomen. What I won't do, and what you wouldn't be trying to force women to do if you weren't steeped in your learned male socialisation, is fight to allow you to violate women's safe spaces.

I won't fight for people who say that lesbians who refuse to sleep with TW who have penises are bigots, or who argue for their "corrective rape". I won't fight for those TW who have campaigned to have a rape crisis centre closed down because they won't allow TW into their safe space. And, given that those kinds of TW are the most prominent within your community, what are we to believe?

FWIW, I've never met an RF who doesn't want TW to live happy lives. All the ones I know would just like MtT to stop trying to enforce the very gender stereotypes we're trying to get rid of, in order for women to be able to be whatever we want to be. TW enforce and codify stereotypes, they can't help it, it's part of the dysphoria.

Well we'll have to take your word for whether you pass as well as you think you do. You're not a woman though because you are not a human female. Your demand for women to say you are and always have been a woman negates the meaning of "woman". Being a woman is not an identity, not a feeling and not a club that you can bully your way into.

@Puffins At what point do you establish something as 'fact', independant verfification by medical profesionals is usually good enough...

The facts that are stated in so many of the trans threads ive read on here are based on proven invalid scientific documents.

You err with your statement, you are quite correct that trans women are not trying to invalidate your identities, its the cisgendered women who want to invalidate the trans peoples identity by refusing them access to basic services such as toilets etc, trans people just want to be accepted for who we are.

What would you suggest a trans person does if they need to toilet, use the gents where they are statistically more likely to be attacked?

Of course you are completely correct in your statements about lesbians, rape crisis centers, and 'corrective rape' the people who are advocating for these things are just plan idiots, there is not two ways about it.

As I said previously, for a group that prides itself on wanting equality, you are very happy to discriminate based on something as small as a chromosome.

I note that my question to all of you goes regularly unanswered in these threads:

Finally a question for you, you want trans people to use the toilet of their birth? That means trans men using the womans bathrooms, womans safe spaces etc, for those who are unaware trans men have deep voices, bushy beards and the physical effects of testosterone. Would you rather it that way round?

I'll answer it if you want. I don't mind whether FTTs use the women's or the men's. If men care about FTTs in their loos they can take that up. I don't mind if they use the women's because they are women.

Ah, right, let me answer that then...

No. I think that for as long as we have people like you trying to elbow your way into our safe spaces, then it is far safer for women to have gender free single cubicles. Hope that helps. It would also keep TW and TM safe from the people who ACTUALLY harm them. Men. It's so much easier to attack women though, isn't it? We so usually capitulate.

Cis is a slur, I am not cis. I find it offensive and it misgenders me. Don't do it again. I will report any further posts which misgender me, and they will be deleted.

You obviously utterly failed to read the words I wrote. shock I don't discriminate against you, I actually said, in a whole paragraph, that I would fight beside you to stop discrimination against you. And, if you honestly think that the chromosome issue is small, then you have completely and utterly failed to understand women's oppression, which is hardly surprising really, given you grew up bathed in male entitlement and strive now to perpetuate Patriarchal values of femininity.

Sigh... your statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of transgenderism, an FtM person is not a woman.

I had two minds about posting here in the first place, as usual you people staunchly ignore any kind of medical or societal standard. Its like banging ones head against a brick wall.

Being a woman is not about how you look, although that is part of how you are treated. Being a woman is not about how you are raised, although that is part of how you are treated.

Being a woman is being an adult, human female, and all the biological things that that entails, and all the social consequences that stem from that biological reality.

I'm not saying that being trans is easy, I'm not saying that trans people don't have similar problems to women (or men), and I'm not dismissing or minimising those problems.

What we're saying is that women and transwomen are different, and by trying to co-opt the word 'woman', and be counted as a woman in official statistics etc. you are harming us.

You are not harming us by coming into the same bathroom, but there are men that will, there are men that will pretend to be trans in order to do that, and we have no way of telling the difference. By segregating on identified gender rather than biological sex you are opening us to the same risk that you are trying to prevent for yourself - unknown, predatory males in what should be a safe space

I would hope that someone who has been through so much to get where they are, could sympathise with the position of those they identify and realise why this is a concern, rather than bully them into catering to your needs over their own.

"trans people just want to be accepted for who we are"

We do accept you for who you are: Transwomen. That is, males who feel like women.

You want to be accepted to who you think you are: Women. That is, adult human females.

I'm sorry but there is (1) a difference between those two, and (2) a limit to how far I am prepared to go to make you feel good about yourself.

So 'us people' ignore any kind of medical and societal standard...well 'you people' constantly claim that there are no instances of trans women attacking women in bathrooms, then when presented with evidence showing that these cases do exist, claim these people aren't trans women. Schrodinger's trans woman. A trans woman when she needs the toilet, a cross dressing man when they start a fight.

"you want trans people to use the toilet of their birth? That means trans men using the womans bathrooms, womans safe spaces etc"

It doesn't mean that, actually. Men don't feel threatened by transmen. They are not protesting the presence of females in their changing rooms and toilets that I have noticed, probably because as a group they don't need safe spaces from women and never have.