Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"What makes a women" NY Times article

215 replies

iisme · 08/06/2015 10:30

Nothing very new here but it expresses most of my feelings around the trans debates very clearly and well. I want to put it on Facebook but I know it will kick off a shit-storm and I'm not sure I have the strength ...

mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?referrer=&_r=0

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
YonicScrewdriver · 11/06/2015 06:09

Thanks, almond.

Quest, what is the cultural root of FGM if not to destroy women's pleasure in sex and thereby keep her vagina solely for the man she married? I don't think that's innate; after all, it doesn't happen everywhere and isn't an "old" practice in evolutionary terms. We are all born into a cultural set up that has roots in treating uterus owners and testes owners differently.

lightningsprite · 11/06/2015 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 11/06/2015 22:41

Thank you for sharing lightningsprite. Can I ask how you resolved things for you?

I am someone who would normally be affirming of trans people. What has got me worried is the law that says people can identify as any gender. It wouldn't worry me if a woman wanted to identify as a man but I see some real issues with men simply being able to identify as women and have access to women's safe spaces (not for me, I don't feel a huge need for safe spaces but many other women do). I wonder if I can ask, did you feel safe being in any male only spaces?

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 23:21

Lightning sprite, your last paragraph... I would give the example that DS's school wrote a lengthy explanation of why gender stereotyping has negative consequences in society, particularly for girls, and then stated a zero tolerance policy on stereotyping and gendered slurs.

So to tackle the gender problem, they had to talk about gender to name and explain the problem.

I think we're in agreement, but I also think that what not mentioning gender means can easily get confused. The same applies with other issues like racism.

Thequestforunderstanding · 11/06/2015 23:26

Yonic

Yes, that’s the case – book planning stage, and the effect gender plays in the way we think and behave, as individuals and society, and the feedback loops between the various layers of systems that lead to stereotyping. The human brain / mind and how it interacts with other people, with ideas and with people as a whole has always been of great interest to me. Feminism has always played a part in my thinking, as I’m third-generation feminist (old skool) and hope my daughter will be fourth-generation. However, my ideas have wandered far and wide. I’ve gone from blank-slate communism through genetic determinism (along with a brief flirtation with evolutionary psychology), was temporarily caught up by the illusory wonders of neuroimaging, but have now reached the point where I believe we have a genetic ability to wipe the slate clean, providing we’re brought up free from too much social conditioning. That’s the jumping-off point for my novel.

Posting what I did here is a way of trying to clarify things in my head. I used to post on Guardian CiF before it became crap, but have now found MN! Internal discourse only gets you so far because it tends to be very one-sided, and as anyone who writes will know, it helps formulate ideas when you put them down and gives others the chance to point out the stupid bits and the bits that don’t make sense. The trans-woman debate is one I still haven’t managed to form a coherent position on as my libertarian ideals get rather mixed up with the fact that many trans women promote a negative gender stereotype of women. However, I do have ideas on the way rights are split up.

Obviously, only women have abortions. However, the woman’s right to abortion is the same right as my right to get my ears pierced, or the right to not have my foreskin removed, or to not have my hand cut off if I steal, or to wear a condom, smoke, have sex with another man or whatever it is I want to do to my own body or prevent others doing to mine without my permission. The physical act of abortions apply only to women, and it makes sense that women control this, but the principle of the right to abortions is an expression of a set of fundamental, universal human rights. If any one of us want to defend universal human rights we don’t get to pick and choose which particular application of those rights we defend. We defend them all, and that makes abortion everyone’s issue.

Of course, the last thing women need is the patriarchy seizing hold of issues they’ve fought hard to gain control of. That is the risk of removing the “women’s issue” label. However, the way I see it the history of feminism is filled with women fighting to get “women’s issues” to be issues that have to be actively addressed by men too. There have always been “women’s issues” and these issues have usually been swept to one side by men - men are quite happy to have issues divided by gender, as long as they get to decide which sex gets to control which ones. Let women worry about their silly hormones and reproductive organs, let the men worry about the big stuff. In fact, let’s actively denigrate the importance of what matters to women, which we can safely do because these things don’t apply to men.

It seems to me that not that much has actually changed. Women have abortion, rape, maternity leave and men (overwhelmingly) have war, climate change, religious extremism, monetary policy etc. Women are allowed to have control over the reproductive stuff (which most men don’t want to have to think about that anyway) the stuff which means they can cook nice dinners and have the kids clean for when dad gets home, but are largely shut out of stuff that directly effects the “important” parts of the lives of men. Where inroads have been made into the largely male-exclusive areas of life it’s been through the assertion of equality and the elimination of gender barriers, not through hiving off bits of the patriarchy.

Feminism should (to me) be about achieving joint and equal rights, freedoms and responsibility for both men and women at the same time. Men need to think less about how abortion and policy regarding rape is for women and more about how pro-abortion legislation and anti-rape policing derive from rights that directly benefit them as well. Not only this, but if we can get the patriarchy to think of “women’s issues” as universal issues, it helps break the cycle of: “women’s issues” aren’t important because women aren’t important. How do we know women aren’t important? Because they’re overly concerned with women’s issues!".

Women are different from men, but really not that much different at all. The last thing we should be doing is highlighting the differences between the genders, and should instead be focusing on the commonalities.

As for the roots of gender inequality? Hmmm. At a guess I'd say its about controlling resources. I suppose that is about biology, because the resource in question is the woman's reproductive system. And, yes, the greater physical strength of men has given them the ability to enforce the patriarchy. However, these things are matters of circumstance and aren't necessarily linked to the way the male or female brains work. Does this sort of society act as an evolutionary pressure on men to adapt with a specific set of genes that promote "male" behaviour? Possibly. But there are other counter-pressures, such as the need for men to not be violent towards women in general because they'll be killed for raping or beating another man's wife. And in a violent society, the ability to get what you want (as a man) without having to use violence is probably going to lead to genetic success. A gene for keeping wives in line, then? Maybe, but we have lots of other genes that invite us to co-operate with kinsfolk, to protect our assets, to respect those we love and so forth. Some of those are potentially male-only too.

Thequestforunderstanding · 11/06/2015 23:39

Thinking further about the last point, I see where you're coming from.

Thought experiment: Men have two genes, one for violence and one for peace. Is the violence of men, therefore, genetic? Well, yes. What if we add a third gene that allows the first two to be turned on or off depending on the nature of the particular man's upbringing? Is male violence still genetic? Yes, but now its also societal. In fact, it's predominantly societal because society could turn off the first gene and stop men being violent. So, how do we design society so that we get gene 3 to turn off gene 1? That is the question!

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 23:41

Your posts are really long.

Human rights are not something you personally get to make up. It doesn't matter what you think they are. Women do have specific human rights. That was decided by, and is monitored by, the UN.

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:05

I think there is a real danger with labelling a certain gene as the reason people may be violent and therefore possibly assuming it is not people's fault because it's all in the genes!

I am sure there are plenty of men who are not at all violent.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29760212

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:08

You don't enable women to be interested in or involved in bigger issues by taking away or weakening their opportunities to relate to reproductive rights.

YonicScrewdriver · 12/06/2015 00:11

"However, these things are matters of circumstance and aren't necessarily linked to the way the male or female brains work"

I agree. I also never stated that the treatment of women as a class by society owing to their uterus possession was anything to do with male/female brain. I don't believe in innate male/female brain.

Your posts are verylong.

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:11

In fact if women are oppressed due to their ability to reproduce them it is hard to imagine a bigger issue! But plenty of women are also interested in war, climate change etc.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/apr/30/yemen-conflict-end-female-peace-activists-the-hague

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenham_Common_Women%27s_Peace_Camp

www.trust.org/item/20130918055440-fkeoh/

I could go on but I won't....

Canyouforgiveher · 12/06/2015 00:34

Women are different from men, but really not that much different at all. The last thing we should be doing is highlighting the differences between the genders, and should instead be focusing on the commonalities.

Fair enough - how about men took the lead on building on the commonalities. Seeing as history shows that men made the divisions to start with (for their immense benefit).

As a woman, I don't know whether I feel different or not to a man - seems like a silly question in many ways. I also feel different to someone who is Finnish - what does that say about anything?

but my experience of living life as a woman has of course been radically different to that of a man living life as a man, right down to my husband and I having a baby but only one of us (surprise! me) almost dying to produce him.

Pretendinig women and men are the same is nice - but not actually realistic in any way. Or beneficial to anyone.

I love this thread and the original article and I am sick of the thought movement that reduces being a woman to being just like a man and vice versa, just depends on your choice. I have yet to meet a woman (an actual born female and lived famale) woman who believes that for a minute.

And the idea that being female is about nail f-king varnish. I wish.

FloraFox · 12/06/2015 05:59

If any one of us want to defend universal human rights we don’t get to pick and choose which particular application of those rights we defend.

No I don't agree with this at all, especially not when you seem to have selected a set of what you think are universal human rights.

SweetAndFullOfGrace · 12/06/2015 06:22

It's a convenient moral position isn't it?

Not used to being excluded from things or not listened to...
In any debate about feminism men should take a back seat since they are theorists rather than practitioners...
Yet this does not mesh with the lived experience of a man! You must listen to me!
Oh, I know - I will decide that women's rights are universal and perform some complicated logic to explain why men should care just as much as women, then I can join in!

It doesn't work like that. I appreciate what you're trying to do, it's nice, but it's kind of patronising. Women's issues don't need men to care in order to make them as important as war etc. And I can tell you now, no man will ever care as much about issues like abortion as someone who has had to have one.

almondcakes · 12/06/2015 08:03

You can't deal with any of the major global issues without including women's rights within the solution anyway. We're half the world. Trying to resolve global problems while ignoring the situation for women makes it impossible to solve the problems.

And 2015 is the UN year of changing economies through realising women's human rights. So it is ridiculous to claim that a. there are no rights specific to women, b. such rights place women's issues outside of the economic system or environmental concerns or c. that you can resolve global economic issues while ignoring the fact that women give birth and breastfeed. Good luck with that one when women do most of the world's work.

AskBasil · 12/06/2015 10:27

"Women are allowed to have control over the reproductive stuff (which most men don’t want to have to think about that anyway) the stuff which means they can cook nice dinners and have the kids clean for when dad gets home, but are largely shut out of stuff that directly effects the “important” parts of the lives of men. "

When you say have control over the reproductive stuff, what do you mean?

The reproductive stuff - the medicine, the law, the social assumptions about it - is controlled by men. They're the ones still in the majority in decision making in those professions. How is that women having control?

BertieBotts · 12/06/2015 10:48

I am totally that right-on lefty liberal who is simultaneously horrified that I am not accepting everyone perfectly, while also being horrified at the simplification of gender roles into two binary compartments by certain trans activists.

It's really bloody confusing and horrible bit of cognitive dissonance. It literally hurts to try and reconcile these two beliefs. I'm at a total loss as to how to explain it to people, especially when they are in the "horrified liberal" camp, and they genuinely don't realise that they are throwing women under the bus with this.

How do you? How do you talk about it? I'm normally articulate, but whenever I try and talk about this I babble and make giant glaring errors which manage to offend both sides all at once.

scallopsrgreat · 12/06/2015 10:49

"Women are different from men, but really not that much different at all. The last thing we should be doing is highlighting the differences between the genders, and should instead be focusing on the commonalities."

I think you are misunderstanding what we are doing. We are pointing out differences in the way men and women behave. I think most of us on this thread think that the way people behave has a large dose of social conditioning attached to it. If we ignore this how are we to enable people to behave in whatever manner they choose i.e. in what is traditionally feminine or masculine or Shock a bit of both. Everything is just going to continue at the current status quo. We have to name the problem in order to tackle it. And as Canyouforgiveher has stated we, as women, have different lived experiences. We should be allowed to talk about those experiences and name them. Your post smacks of telling us to STFU about this.

"Women are allowed to have control over the reproductive stuff..." Well that's very big of you to "allow" us to have reproductive rights. See it isn't even a given that we should have reproductive rights. Someone a man has to allow us to have them. Except, of course, as Basil points out, we don't have those rights they are only granted to us if men see fit to grant them to us and if we fit some criteria that they have designated.

"How do we know women aren’t important? Because they’re overly concerned with women’s issues!" I'm not sure how that statement is an answer to that question. Women's unimportance is not down to the fact they focus on women's issues (and this is the first time I've heard anyone say this). It is the fact that those issues are considered unimportant. Feminism raises the importance of those issues (amongst other things). You say you are third generation feminist ally (I don't believe men can be feminists) yet you don't seem to understand the basic tenets of feminism or the roots of women's oppression.

BertieBotts · 12/06/2015 11:04

I liked this a lot from Beachcomber's link. I added credit so if anyone wants to download and share the image please do.

"What makes a women" NY Times article
YonicScrewdriver · 12/06/2015 11:11

Yy to your 10:48 post Bertie.

BertieBotts · 12/06/2015 11:23

I am uncomfortable with a lot of the trans-critical literature, because they are often SO vehement in refusal to use trans community terms, often putting quotes around terms such as transgender, woman, prominent MTF personalities' female names, etc. Sometimes using excessively sarcastic or hyperbolic or just snarky tone in general. I just find it othering and unnecessarily hostile, and I feel like it clouds the issue, because the totally non-liberal, but also not especially feminist criticism of trans theory is "Eww freak". I feel like sometimes radfem stuff comes across as a bit "Eww, freak" rather than "This is problematic because X"

In my liberal way I just want to scream "But why can't everyone just PLAY NICE?" but I know that it doesn't really work that way, that it does make people on both sides really angry.

I am liberal politically, but I do like the radical feminist ideology of getting to the root. So I suppose I'd say I'm a radical feminist, and I find I can follow most radfem arguments well enough, even the controversial ones, but on this topic I find it really hard to empathise with radfems when they speak this way about people. I just feel, don't forget they are real people. You might think they are delusional or disagree with what they are saying but they're also obviously going through some painful stuff, and I just find it unhelpful to be so rude, frankly. I haven't yet found an article I feel confident to share, because they all appear to contain some variation on "Trans isn't real". I believe it's a real struggle for the people who go through it. I just don't think it's the right answer as a movement to "smash the gender binary", because it's more reinforcing it than anything.

MonstrousRatbag · 12/06/2015 11:48

it had to happen: scroll down to the comments on this Buzzfeed article about a woman involved in civil rights whose parents have announced she is actually Caucasian and only pretending to be black. It is being argued by some that if she is black in her mind, then hey presto, she is black. Another commentator makes a direct analogy with Caitlyn Jenner. So the argument used to explain gender identity and trans is perhaps becoming influential in other spheres. Where it is at least equally problematic:

Buzzfeed

ArabellaStrange · 12/06/2015 11:51

I am all for people wanting to live/identify as the other sex but I draw the line at being told, that as a consequence I have to shut up about my own lived experience as a biological woman. And at a purely biological level, a man can't become a woman and a woman can't become a man.
And I never ever wear fricking nail varnish but I have birthed two children and terminated two pregnancies. I started having periods when I was eleven and I am currently on medication to control something that is directly related to the fact that I have ovaries.
So I am not going to refer to myself as a 'cis-woman' as what I am is a real life biological woman and I will use the term 'trans-woman' to identify that there are people who have penises but choose to live in a way not typical for an average man.
I fully support their right to do so as long as they in return adknowledge that they have a different lived experience and will never truly be an actual woman woman.

Beachcomber · 12/06/2015 12:10

Feminism should (to me) be about achieving joint and equal rights, freedoms and responsibility for both men and women at the same time.

Yes, well, men say this a lot. It generally means that they haven't;

a) properly thought about what feminism is

b) ever asked an actual feminist what feminism is (and heard her)

Feminism is different things to different people but it is essentially a social justice movement. It is a social justice movement that used to be called 'Women's Liberation' - and I wish it was still called women's lib because the notion of liberation is extremely important in feminist tenets.

Logically, if women seek liberation, it means that there is an agent which they need liberated from.

And that agent is male violence (AKA patriarchy/gender/sex roles/domination and subordination). There is no point talking about equality and rights if one ignores the context within which one seeks to achieve them. That context is male supremacist society (which dominates, controls, exploits and abuses girls and women) and the societal male violence used to enforce and maintain that supremacy.

Women's issues are not considered unimportant because women concentrate on them and women are not considered unimportant because they concentrate on women's issues. Neither women nor their issues are considered important because human females have been awarded low value and status in male supremacist society. Girls and women are considered less human than boys and men. Until you change the actual context all we can do is tinker with a few details (and we call this equality!!).

So, if we look at one of the concrete examples Thequestforunderstanding gave, that of abortion, a (radical) feminist will examine abortion rights within the context of patriarchy and therefore PIV, compulsory heterosexuality, rape culture, the fetishization of youth, the feminization of poverty, the exclusion of women from power structures, women and children as chattel, etc, etc.

Thequestforunderstanding, you say you are here to use us as a sounding board for your thoughts on a book - so I will give you some honest feedback. I think you need to think a lot more about what feminism is and what gender is. Firstly because of the content of your posts and secondly because of where you have decided to post them. A lot of women don't want to be used by men and have their time taken up by men when we are busy discussing our issues with patriarchy, in the main because it is patriarchal behavior on the part of the man but also because men usually start off by telling us what they think feminism is/what it does wrong/what its aims should be. And this, generally whilst having a poor grasp themselves on the basics such as gender.

Now, back to the topic of the thread. I just wanted to say that I can't remember where I first came across the The New Backlash blog, it may have been on MN - I just wanted to say thank you to the posters here who appreciate it and please share it.

GirlSailor · 12/06/2015 14:35

Bertie, I agree about the attitude of putting quote marks around pronouns and refusing to use the names people have chosen to be addressed by. If someone asks me to refer to them by a new name I see no problem with that, and I will use whatever pronouns they prefer. As a possible limitation to this I don't see how using someone's old name is necessarily a slight. I don't know how Caitlyn Jenner feels about the use of her old name, but unless she made a point about not wanting to hear it, I would assume it would be correct to say that Bruce Jenner won Olympic medals but I have seen people be challenged (often quite strongly) for saying that. I do understand that the term 'woman' and female pronouns may mean different things to other people, though. Similarly, I don't regularly use women only spaces but understand that these are very important to many, so while I don't place much importance on a pronoun other people may think differently.

Swipe left for the next trending thread