Men can't be feminists

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

This is what a poster has just said on another thread. This seems absolutely insane. Of course they can. Many are. More should be.

Thoughts?

The men I've met who called themselves feminists also have a tendency to get very very angry at the mention of male privilege, because they don't like the feeling that they maybe they should check their own...

So yes in theory of course men can be feminists. But letting go of unconsciously absorbed privilege is a very difficult thing.

Guy - no, you didn't, and I'm glad that's not the case. But we've already got a foot-stamper right here on this thread, so it's not like I pulled that one out of thin air.

Course they can. Anyone who thinks people shouldn't be discriminated against on the basis of gender is a feminist.

Trouble is OnlyLovers, what do they think actually is discrimination against another gender. That remarkable nottinghamshire chap from Justice for Men and Boys - someone will remember his name somewhere, actually best not mention it in case he checks - claims that the world is now discriminating against men in favour of women, is he a feminist?

The question of male privilege in the indiviadual arena is mildly interesting because there are undoubtedly men at the bottom of the pile who can legitimately get a bit narked by, e.g. white middle class woman, telling them they are automatically more privileged because penis even if they're, eg, black working class (or below: extreme examples just for the point). But the general social rule still holds. Flatter hierarchies and more equal societies would work well for everyone, so why the heck do they still insist on whinging about feminists instead of helping them.

OnlyLovers - I have a lot of time for that kind of 'big-tent feminism', and in theory you are absolutely right. In practice, though, you get a lot of people like these fucking guys.

I don't have a problem with calling a man a feminist but I do have a problem with a man insisting that he be called that rather than a feminist ally. Social justice movements should be led by people in the oppressed class. People in the privileged class should be willing to be led by people who have experience living with the oppression and be very sensitive to their concerns.

I work for (and volunteer for another) feminist organization. We have male colleagues in this work. They defer to the women who lead the work. As they should.

Buffy I just asked him and this was his response:

'Of course I would oblige. It's not for me to make decisions without consultation- that would be further oppressing an already oppressed group. It's for me to listen. And if that's what was preferred, then that's what I would do. I would say that it might be difficult to please everyone though and so I should be certain that I have thoroughly researched the history of both phrases in order to fully understand any objections!'

A reasonable response I think

But I do think if he calls himself a feminist and someone objects, the objection probably shouldn't be too aggressive! After all, we don't all object to him using the phrase and surely it's better for a man to call himself a feminist than to distance himself from feminism altogether, assuming that it is the fight of 'angry women'? At least it shows a sense of solidarity- that everyone should fight for equality. Assuming there is no demand that he calls himself that against the wishes of women everywhere then at worst it might be misguided? (And personally I am absolutely fine with him calling himself a feminist because I believe that's what he is and it is meant in the best possible way )

"Social justice movements should be led by people in the oppressed class. People in the privileged class should be willing to be led by people who have experience living with the oppression and be very sensitive to their concerns."

Exactly. Otherwise those traditionally "higher up the ladder" in terms of power will end up dominating things, intentionally, or unintentionally.

Men can support feminism all day long, but they can't lead the movement, or set priorities as so many try to do. They also need to be very conscious of the social conditioning which can lead them to dismiss women's opinions and actions (usually as being too emotional).

The same applies to anti-racist organisations. White people can be allies, but they should let those most affected by racism lead.

Generally speaking, yes, being "too aggressive" is rarely helpful. But in many contexts it's code for "I am willing to demonstrate basic solidarity, but only if you ask nicely". And men who distance themselves from feminism because they "a feminist was rude to me once" are allies I can personally live without. That said, it doesn't sound like that's the case with your DH.

'Of course I would oblige. It's not for me to make decisions without consultation- that would be further oppressing an already oppressed group. It's for me to listen. And if that's what was preferred, then that's what I would do. I would say that it might be difficult to please everyone though and so I should be certain that I have thoroughly researched the history of both phrases in order to fully understand any objections!' - I mean, shit, even at my most man-hating I can't find anything wrong with that.

Yeah, he's not bad, my dh

I know and I get it, but I'm still more than happy for him to call himself a feminist though. Maybe because he is so willing to take his lead from others, but to me, he is fighting the same fight for the same cause. He hasn't been opposed, but then actually neither have I. So am I a feminist ally as well even though I am also female?

*oppressed

There is only one catch and that is Catch-22 which specifies that insisting on the right to call yourself a feminist despite objections from feminists precludes you from actually being a feminist. It's quite a catch.

Angry? I am a feminist. Damn right I am angry.

uglyswan - Yes, that's some catch alright and given the very strong likelihood that some place somewhere some feminists will be objecting, seems to me therefore men can't be feminists.

Well, I'm certainly convinced. A different question - but possibly with the same answer - can they be allies ?

Hello again cadno.

Hi