Men can't be feminists

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

This is what a poster has just said on another thread. This seems absolutely insane. Of course they can. Many are. More should be.

Thoughts?

"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.
But - and this goes for allies too - it's not so much a question of some feminists objecting as how you respond to their objections.
Personally, I'm happy to refer to people as comrades, but as not all feminists share my political leanings, I'm sure there'll be objections to that as well.
But if I have to choose between a self-declared feminist who just barges into feminist spaces and tells women where they're going wrong and refuses to listen or engage and a man who actively opposes sexism, questions the gendered division of labour and listens to women when they tell him about his experiences but doesn't call himself a feminist - that's a no-brainer really.

"it's not so much a question of some feminists objecting as how you respond to their objections"

totally agree

I find it easier to work on an issue by issue basis. I would say my own personal views align with a lot of what I see expressed in feminist thinking.

I would say whatever label fits me isn't a particularly pressing issue. Besides I am sure I hold some views that would be considered anathema to feminism.

I am happy to acquire a feminist bias in my thinking though.

I guess it depends much on the degree of investment in 'labeling theory' you wish to do. As we know, 'labels' can hide as much as they reveal, and in this context, I think, it's pretty moot. IF a male wishes to self-identify as a feminist, then fine...but ultimately it's the 'practise' that has any meaning and engine for change. So yes it isn't a pressing issue, except to some men who are really keen to self-label so, and for a few reasons I'd be pretty about them.

I am not in favour of men who lash out verbally or sulk when they don't get their own way or are disagreed with by women. I think a great test for a man's support of feminist aims is how he reacts when he is told that women would rather he sit down, listen and call himself an ally.

Works for violence and... what? Try prostitution. If I 'sit down and listen' but ultimately support a New Zealand model of prostitution rather than a Nordic model I have allied my view with a section of feminism the vast bulk of feminists of mumsnet do not agree with. Other feminist places on the net, different story. But here in disagreement gender leaves me open to being accused of 'male', failing to understand the lived experiences of women, desiring to support patriarchal constructs or worse. All the regular troupes. What would you have me do to be in your good books if Nordic model feminists want to change the laws of New Zealand, remain seated and mute and listen attentively rather than disagree and side with choice feminists on the issue?

Are you so sure you have nailed the "sitting down and listening" yet? (I'm not referring to your views on prostitution)

Actually I think Dadhas a point. Plenty of female feminists will disagree with each other.
I think the key is is the intention behind the opinion and the actions that follow. Is your opinion truly based on your belief in equality? If so then it's fine that you hold that belief. Is your belief in opposition to the majority of women who are feminists? Then it's not fine that you procceed in arguing the point and calling it feminism.

I'm more focusing on this idea that anyone can say "well once I've done my sitting down and listening, when is the part where I get to start voicing my opinion?"

It's not like that - it's an ongoing process. My opinion changes (or perhaps better to say refines or becomes more nuanced) the more I listen to a variety of women. More and more varied women's voices are needed in feminism - not more men's voices

My experience of men who go on about what fabulous feminists they are is them taking over women's spaces.

I went to one event where a workshop was facilitated by one of these 'good guys' which he used as excuse to boss a roomful of women about for an hour!

If men want to be feminists they should spend more time in the kitchen and leave the feminist organising to the women!

Well why didn't that roomful of women speak up then? I think you have made a lot of assumptions about his intentions- he may have thought he was showing solidarity. If genuine well-meaning men want to get involved but screw up, we should let them know. Only if they then refuse to listen should we banish them to the kitchen, as you say. Not just because they have a penis and they want to get involved with a fight for equality.

I think it's possible to have an opinion that isn't strictly aligned with everyone else, own that, express it and discuss it sensibly.

My own thoughts on prostitution are that it isn't inherently wrong, I've said as much in the past. Yet that is an extremely minor point in the grand scheme, as the way we approach sex and have socialised around the concept basically make it a moral or ethical wrong.

I am as convinced as convinced can be that under the current climate it wreaks untold havoc on individual's psyches of those who engage in it, and seeing as it is often the most vulnerable and desperate that are drawn to it we as a society should not let that stand.

I honestly don't know what model is the best one, in fact I'm more then happy to keep trying out different ones until we find the one that minimises harm the best. Although the caveat what ever system it was that lead to those German super brothels is quite obviously the wrong one.

Wether someone thinks me a feminist/ally/whatever couldn't really be less relevant next to that particular discussion, but I would like anyone who finds the status quo as depressing and as worrisome as I do to feel I am with them on that particular issue.

Hang on - straight and non-trans LGBT allies and white anti-racist allies are very commonly accepted, but when it comes to women and feminism we can't have male allies? As in, they have to be actual feminists rather than allies? I haz a sceptical.

I think the male feminist / feminist ally business can also get tied up in issues of the the necessity of male approval of the feminist cause. I had very mixed feelings about the "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirts that did the rounds a few years ago. A quick google image search confirms my impression at the time, which was that the most prominent images were those of middle-class white men wearing that t-shirt.

Patrick Stewart was one of the more famous (from my POV as a lover of Star Trek, anyway ) examples, and he's also quoted as saying:

"People won't listen to you or take you seriously unless you're an old white man, and since I'm an old white man I'm going to use that to help the people who need it."

On the one hand, massive kudos and respect to him for taking that stance. On the other hand, people ought to listen to the feminist message because of its own merits - not because the torch is being taken up by men. The "this is what a feminist looks like" campaign felt very ambivalent to me as an underlying - and I'm sure unintended - message seemed to be that feminism could only be mainstream and acceptable once men had got in on it.

I don't know, it is tricky. I think there's a conflict between the fact that feminism is a movement largely about women's experiences and trying to improve those experiences, and women need to have the space and voice within that movement to say - this is what we have experienced, this is what we need to see change - and bringing men, as the very significant other side of the coin, onboard.

I think that feminist men do need to be extraordinarily sensitive to the fact that, whilst as individuals they may be incredibly thoughtful and kind people, they - just like women - have been raised within a patriarchal society and therefore may unintentionally continue to enact traditional power dynamics even within feminist debate, which is problematic.

I remember attending a feminist conference a few years ago and there was one man in the room. He looked quite nervous throughout and my first instinct was to think "hmm, well done him!" Then my next thought was - why should I have thought that? The fact that he's a man at a feminist conference doesn't make him any more or less special than all of the women in the room.

Sorry, that was rambly! Time to get back to my thesis...

Yes I can see the problem but I don't like the assumption that they are in the wrong. They should be given the opportunity to show they are willing to listen. If they don't, well then we have to stand up to them. I don't think this is an issue of feminism, just basic respect.

Also shouldn't there be a place where authentic emotional reactions to injustices perpetrated against women can be expressed without reference to wether that expression offends any men present.

I've seen too many discussions where a token namalt derails the whole issue. If feminism isn't the place to do that then where?

If I'm in a thread on a feminist board and my need to feel validated and accepted trumps any woman's need to vent at the sheer frustration of it all something has gone screw-whiff in my opinion.

There are after all tonnes of places I can go for my warm fuzzies, not so many places that are safe for women to express genuine and justifiable anger.

But anger towards you personally isn't justifiable, is it?

Btw anger towards me personally is perfectly acceptable if I'm being an asshat. ;-p