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Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

(417 Posts)
ArcheryAnnie Tue 03-Mar-15 23:20:50 they don't actually want to listen to women who disagree with them in any way.

I am not including common-or-garden arseholes here, as the list would be a billion posts long and the internet would explode. I am talking about the kind of man who writes a long, handwringing article in the Guardian about how we should all listen to feminists more, but then deletes most of the comments from actual feminists that are posted on it.

The two currently at the top of my very long List are:
Ally Fogg
Owen Jones

Nominations, please.

rivetingrosie Wed 04-Mar-15 00:34:34

I second Owen Jones! His ignorance of the issues at stake in this debate is so revealing of his male privilege. He was astonished to learn of the existence of the "cotton ceiling" when confronted with it on twitter and didn't even seem to understand why lesbians might have a problem with it! He spends all of 5 mins thinking about trans/radfem points of clash and concludes "yep, definitely just feminists being bigoted/lying/hysterical/divisive AS USUAL, amirite guys?" Type type type, off to the guardian, well done Owen, saviour of the world.

PuffinsAreFictitious Wed 04-Mar-15 08:33:57

Oh, I don't believe Owen Jones was really ignorant of the issues at all. No one who has followed the main aftas can be in any doubt really. And if Ally Fogg is a feminist, then I am the Queen of Sheba.

HermioneWeasley Wed 04-Mar-15 08:35:35

Oh, I came on to say Owen jones. And Richard Dawkins

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Wed 04-Mar-15 10:15:39

Owen Jones, definitely. That article he wrote the other week was like a bad satire, especially the bit about listening to women. He might listen to the ones who agree with him, dunno, but women as a group - no, so he should stop showing off about it.

Ally Fogg is so far out of the ballpark that I'm not even going to consider him.

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 10:19:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 10:20:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grimbletart Wed 04-Mar-15 10:29:48

Every time I used to hear Owen Jones being praised as if he was insightful and something special I used to think WTF? He's naive and only spouting standard left wingery you usually hear from a teenager.

Glad his true colours are now visible for all to see.

rivetingrosie Wed 04-Mar-15 11:45:26

TheBlackRider I think OJ is a really great example of the misogynistic assumptions made by trans activists and their allies. He does seem to be sincerely ignorant, for instance in this twitter exchange that went on yesterday with Sarah Ditum he does seem pretty clueless...

He does write well on lots of stuff, and his Chavs book was great, but he's out of my good books now because his first reaction to a dispute between feminists and trans people is: the feminists must be wrong, the feminists are bad, the feminists are bigots, the feminists need to STFU. Also his outrage at being asked about cunnilingus - he just doesn't get it!!!

tropic Wed 04-Mar-15 11:51:49

I think OJ has been very disingenuous about the whole thing; he must have known his article would spark off this sort of thing, and to sit back and be all 'oh no, nasty terfs, no wonder people hate them', with no attempt whatsoever to understand the radical feminist point of view, is ridiculous. He feels harrassed by 'terfs' asking him if he'd have sex with a trans man? Maybe he can extrapolate that to how lesbian 'terfs' feel when they're told not wanting to shag a penis makes them responsible for suicide, or global warming, or whatever they're up to now.

ApocalypseThen Wed 04-Mar-15 12:08:57

My impression of OJ is that he really thinks it's fine that the ladies can vote and it'd be jolly decent to stop harassing them, but actually engaging with what women think is a bit of a bore really, and everyone knows you shouldn't be anything phobic so, you know...

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 12:23:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ApocalypseThen Wed 04-Mar-15 13:06:55

Yeah, the problem is when you start writing articles excoriating a point of view without bothering to check whether you understand it.

Hobbes8 Wed 04-Mar-15 13:08:51

I'm pretty under informed about this issue - I'd never heard of it until I googled cotton ceiling just now. I'd make it my job to be informed if I were writing a column about it though, so it doesn't strike me as a good excuse.

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 13:12:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox Wed 04-Mar-15 13:47:16

Also, the original tweet from firewomon that got his dander up had a hashtag for cotton ceiling, so all he needed to do was click it. It's quite clear he does recognise the biological differences between men and women as he is still saying performing cunnilingus would mean he is straight. If a woman in his situation said fellating a penis is not a lesbian act, she would be hounded by the trans activists. Instead, they have either been silent on the issue or he is mutually commiserating with some of the very people who relentlessly say this.

I agree with grimble I've never seen the big deal about Owen Jones however this episode completely undermines his credibility. I don't believe he thinks transwomen are biologicially female but if he is willing to say it is unacceptable to say this, I find that politically quite frightening.

cailindana Wed 04-Mar-15 14:16:19

Oh my fucking god, this sort of thing drives me nuts. I have to say if I see a an article about feminism I check the author first and if it's by a man I generally don't read it so I haven't read any Owen Jones or Ally Fogg. Any articles I have read by men have invariably missed the point entirely or smugly told women they were doing things wrong or feeling the wrong way about things. It gives me The Rage.

I have a couple of male friends who have posted smug bullshit on FB and on their own sites displaying how 'right-on' they are - it made me totally lose respect for them. In both cases I challenged them on what they'd said. Predictably, the response was "you're misinterpreting, I don't actually believe that even though it's exactly what I wrote etc etc." One guy did try to take on board what I was saying but then just stopped responding - coward.

It's why I'll never comment on racism beyond "I think it's wrong, but I don't know how it feels to be the subject of it." When it comes to things I know nothing about I listen, I don't trample in and start proclaiming I know everything the way so many men seem to do with feminism. My DH tried it once - suffice it to say he doesn't do it any more!

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 14:25:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ApocalypseThen Wed 04-Mar-15 14:25:56

I feel exactly the same about racism. My input is to shut up, listen carefully, examine my behaviour and assumptions and try to correct how I behave in real life situations. I have no speaking role whatsoever.

Ally Fogg is like a super Owen Jones. He's possibly the worst ever - everything he writes is like a dog whistle for violent, misogyny.

Siane Wed 04-Mar-15 14:27:16

Ally Fogg is hard to beat but Owen Jones is clearly likes a challenge. Am beyond fucked off today.

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 14:29:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 14:31:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ApocalypseThen Wed 04-Mar-15 14:35:31

He says he just wants to promote men's issues (mental health etc). I'm not sure what to make of it tbh

I find that ok - I think it right for men to be active and engage with the issues that men surely have. It's when they try to blame feminism for these issues that I get irritated.

But I've never yet come across a man who had a useful message for feminists or any particularly interesting insight.

FloraFox Wed 04-Mar-15 14:45:43

TheBlackRider haha, he should put that on his twitter bio. grin

TheBlackRider Wed 04-Mar-15 14:46:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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