Men can't be feminists

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

This is what a poster has just said on another thread. This seems absolutely insane. Of course they can. Many are. More should be.

Thoughts?

i read that same article this morning. it's more important for white people not to feel shame at their ancestors' participation in oppression, and those ancestors' descendants' privilege built on that oppression, than it is for black people's history and oppression to be acknowledged [anger]

Yep, agree if you're an asshat you deserve everything you get! I just don't think you deserve to have anger directed at you by default.

Ok fair enough, but isn't their a difference between indiscriminate anger at an injustice, and that directed at me personally?

I haven't personally experienced all that much of the latter.

The more I read/lurk on here, the more I am convinced that the most productive thing men can do re feminism is to let feminists get on with it without interference or hindrance. It is by women, about women and for women. It doesn't need men.

When you write 'needs men' Buffy, do you mean in the sense of 'needs men to be aware '? That is what I was trying to say - I think!

I agree with Buffy, feminism does need men - to listen, understand and support. If more men got on board with feminism properly, things might change a lot quicker (annoying, but true)

Well, Yops, I suppose you could challenge sexist assumptions and behaviour on the part of other men, keep an eye out for sexual harassment and gender biases at the workplace, or have a think about the roles and tasks you and your partner currently play in family life for a start. You know, if we ask really nicely...

Lundy Bancroft and Robert Jensen are examples of the way in which men can help feminism. They name the problem for what it is, recognise the structural inequality and tackle men and their behaviour.

The more I read/lurk on here, the more I am convinced that the most productive thing men can do re feminism is to let feminists get on with it without interference or hindrance. It is by women, about women and for women. It doesn't need men.

We do need men to change, though. Their attitudes, their behaviour, their clinging to male privilege are what props up the patriarchy.

At some point in the drive towards women's liberation, men have to be engaged. The best way to do that, surely, is to divide men among themselves. Those who benefit least from patriarchy, and those who sense how it oppresses and demeans the women and girls they care about, might be receptive to feminist ideas. They may resist – and offer an alternative to – dominant ideologies of masculinity. If men are going to change, they need models of what they might be able to change into. I want feminism to saturate that process of change, those new models. And I think we stand a better chance of achieving that by engaging potential allies, while applying firm rules to how they should participate, rather than by building and policing barriers to keep them out.

Ask me nicely then, and I might.

I was making a distinction between how I conduct myself privately and how I participate publicly, in places like this, snarky pants. I'd be very wary of leaping to the rescue of a delicate, fair damsel at work without wondering whether my intervention was in any way required, and whether I hadn't just made a massive set of assumptions based upon my own experiences, rather than hers.

Yops, what point are you looking to make with the "delicate, fair damsel" phrase?

I think women are just as capable as men of claiming to be feminist but then going on about some topic or another which betrays a total lack of understanding of where the problems lie or even if there really is a problem.

I think the behaviour and ideas needs to be challenged whether male or female. I absolutely agree though that men need to grasp that they cannot truly 'know' how issues affect women in the same way as I can be aware of racism but cannot 'know' what it is like to live in a majority white country as a person from an ethnic minority. Therefore they needed to listen and defer to experience.

My ds has asd. I don't. I join parental support groups but I also follow many autism self advocacy groups. I know my ds best but I defer to them to help me understand autism from their perspective and the issues that affect autistic people. I don't demand they acknowledge me for wanting to support or tell them how to do autism advocacy differently. For it to be meaningful, it must come from them not me.

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Feminism can be a space for female perspectives, analysis and solidarity without the need for men. Men on the other hand can be educated and either stand with, aside or against feminists when it comes to individual issues, and as long as enough good people are pulling in the right direction society can be bettered for everybody.

My point Yonic was that me sounding off about what is and is not sexist and making challenges to others (as per swan's suggestion) could in itself be seen as sexist. Who am I to judge what affects women, and who am I to speak up on their behalf without even considering whether my intervention is necessary or desired? If a woman says nothing in response to a comment that grates with me, should I pipe up?

Yops worry less about being seen as sexist, and just don't be sexist. I don't think doing your little bit is going to be making that earth shattering a difference in the grand scheme of things (mine either for the record).

The idea is that if lots more people were just that little less tolerant of misogyny the world would be that bit friendlier to women. Don't overstate the actions of one individual.

If misunderstandings occur use your words, apologise if necessary and move on that little bit wiser. Rinse & repeat.

Dervel, someone else had suggested that I could monitor the conversations of others. I was merely responding to that. And 'just don't be sexist' - if only it was that easy, eh? I'd say appropriating the offence of others as my own is patronising and prone to misunderstanding.

Yops -"a delicate, fair damsel"? You're just fucking with me now, right? You know, if you (well, not you, obviously) challenge sexism in the workplace, you're not doing it for some delicate damsel. You're doing it for the men. You're withholding your approval for their shitty behaviour. You're refusing to participate in a toxic, misogynist "lad" culture. And who knows, maybe one day the cry will echo through the corridors, "Yops no longer finds sexism funny! Yops will lose all respect for you if you harass your coworkers!" And I'm sure your male coworkers want your respect, no?
Conversely, if you say nothing, you're not respecting the right of your female coworkers to fight their own battles and silently awarding those who do a mental equality point (which you give out sparingly, that's why they're so valuable) with a stern nod, you're just complicit in a culture of sexism and general antisocial behaviour. You let men down when you do that, Yops. You really do.
And "making a distinction between how I conduct myself privately and how I participate publicly" - isn't that just false consciousness, though? Shouldn't the private be the political and all that?
While I fully understand why you feel that feminist discussion should just go ahead "without interference or hindrance" on your part, I don't know how we can be expected to continue without your thoughtful and well-considered contributions. Still, I suppose we'll just solider on somehow...

Next time, read Yonic's posts flagging up the goady fuckers before barrelling on with own response. Sorry Yonic!

See, this is why a lot of people don't get on with FWR & don't feel they can come out of the shadows & contribute.

Yops (to pick the most recent) posts something he feels is contributing to the discussion and within 5 posts receives -

Well, Yops, I suppose you could challenge sexist assumptions and behaviour on the part of other men, keep an eye out for sexual harassment and gender biases at the workplace, or have a think about the roles and tasks you and your partner currently play in family life for a start. You know, if we ask really nicely...

He then reacts in a similarly sarcastic manner (damsels) and that's all that is focused on from then onwards and every post he makes henceforth is either deemed invalid or reacted to with aggression, mocking or "head tilt" questions.....

S'alright .

Yops, your logic looks a little like, "well, I would've spoken out against sexism, but some internet feminists snarked at me so fuck it."

Women don't earn non-sexist behaviour. It should just be that way.