Men can't be feminists

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

This is what a poster has just said on another thread. This seems absolutely insane. Of course they can. Many are. More should be.

Thoughts?

I personally think it's a bit angels on pinheads.

I don't care if men call themselves feminists or feminist allies as long as they understand that their place in feminism is to listen to women and support us, not to try and tell us how to do feminism because they know better than us.

Which regrettably, many male feminists/ feminist allies do.

Men who spend time getting mad at women who won't call them feminists are not feminists.

men can't believe in equality for women?

Is that what the poster was saying or is there more to it?

I don't know what thread you're talking about so I can't read it.

Agree with Basil. I tend to refer to men as "feminist allies" where it suits but wouldn't be bothered by others using feminist.

Of course men can believe in equality for women, but in my experience, they have quite a narrow view of what this means and since they often struggle to not have leadership roles, they can take over.

That's not what bring a male feminist would mean to me.

If a man were really a feminist, would he be assessing his use of porn and assumptions about who does what in a relationship or telling women how they're doing feminism wrong? I see plenty of the latter but there appears to be a marked scarcity of the former.

They mean that men cant be Feminist because men do not have a woman's life experience. They can be Equalist and supporters of Feminism.

I have had it said to me on several Feminist threads. It doesn't matter as long as men don't oppose Feminism objectives and do as much as they can to support women in their fight for fair treatment in all areas of life.

Why waste time on a futile argument?

If a woman says she's not a feminist there's a chorus of "so you don't believe in equality? Because if you do then you ARE a feminist"

So what if a man believes in equality? What is he?

I know male feminists. Most have daughters. But not all. And some of those with daughters were feminist before.

I wouldn't call my husband a feminist simply because he doesn't really think much about social issues / civil society etc. but he chose to marry me and agrees with most of my values and I am a feminist. So I guess he's a "feminist supporter".

Under the basic dictionary definitions of feminism, men can be feminists. I think the word may have even been coined by a man. I understand that some women and men prefer feminist ally, and I understand the reasons, but I have no issue with calling a man a feminist.

I'm having an argument on another site with some men up in arms about something to do with rape - another story in starting a post on - they're obviously trying to be feminists but they're arguing with me and mansplaining what rape is. even that I wasn't raped because I didn't fight back.

anyway, my point is that I think this is why people say that men can't be feminists.

Guy, what do you think of the term feminist ally?

I thought that might be it, morebeta.

I agree with what you say.

I think the term feminist ally is totally unnecessary. It sounds rather tokenistic. My husband is a feminist. He actively stands up for women's rights and equality and is very politically engaged. He's a feminist. He calls himself a feminist and that's what he is.

They mean that men cant be Feminist because men do not have a woman's life experience. They can be Equalist and supporters of Feminism.

But men who describe themselves as "Equalist" instead of "Feminist" tend to get ripped into on here.

Admittedly that may well be due to the way they say it (implying that feminism is sexist & equalist is the only way to go !?!) but the impression I get is that a self proclaimed Equalist man is going to get more head tilts overall than a Feminist one.

Meh. The feelings of men with regards this are pretty low down my priority list.

So I agree with Basil and ApocalypseThen (certainly in terms of my experience of feminist men).

I have no idea what an 'equalist' is IKnow tbh. Supporter of feminism would suggest that a man is aware of the subjugation and oppression of women by men. An equalist?? To me that suggests that they don't recognise systematic oppression but just believe, given the same opportunities, everyone can be equal i.e. ignoring the underlying issues of why, even with the same opportunities, the deck is stacked against those oppressed.

I assume an "Equalist" favours equality for all as opposed to "just" women? I suppose it's possible to be a racist or homophobic feminist.

As a concept it has merit, but the context it is often used in seems to put hackles up.

He's a feminist. He calls himself a feminist and that's what he is.

Good for him. And because there's no Feminist Central Committee to rubber stamp applications, then anyone, female or male, can call herself a feminist if she wants to.

Why does this matter to you and/or your husband? Why do you want validation from other feminists? It ought to be enough, surely, that he stands up for women's rights etc. Why does he need a badge to prove it?

It's quite a prize for a man to be recognised by the toughest audience of all – mean, scary feminists. It marks him out as special. He cares about people less privileged than himself. But isn't it just basic humanity? Supporting women's rights ought to be the default position for men. It's really not much to ask.

How do men perceive women who engage in feminist activism? Spiky and difficult. Various kinds of denigration and ostracism. Targets for MRA sob hate and violence.

When men are prepared to validate the work done by female women's rights activists, then they can start to demand that we validate what they do.

Its easy to be a male in feminism, if you stay within discourses that all female feminists are in agreement with. Violence against women springs to mind. Perhaps there are other things but nothing comes to mind. Abortion rights, sure, but then you have feminists who would argue that abortion to term should be legal and others would disagree. Different stances on prostitution, porn. Beyond 'we all agree' things male feminists are really only seen as worthy as their worst disagreement with the individual stance of the female feminist.

Does it make a practical difference either way?

Ezinma I come across countless examples of twatty men online who call themselves feminists but are first in the queue to mansplain how women who agree with Andrea Dworkin (whom they've actually never read), or who don't unquestionably accept the concept of Lady-brain, aren't real feminists like them and their friends, just irrelevant man-haters.

Well as you said, IKnow people trot out 'equalist' as if feminism's goal isn't women's liberation or equality for women but some form of female supremacy . There is the scepticism. And IME those defining as equalists don't tend to recognise structural inequality/oppression in any of its forms.

I think it matters Dervel if men are insisting on being called feminists with groups of women uncomfortable with that (especially if their actions and views belie this).

"Beyond 'we all agree' things male feminists are really only seen as worthy as their worst disagreement with the individual stance of the female feminist."

I thoroughly disagree with this unpleasant post.

So you're saying that there are men out there who care deeply about women's rights, actively campaign against sexism and gendered violence, and work hard to counter their own small acts of complicity with the patriarchy - but what these lovely men really care about most is getting to use the name? And they will stamp and sulk and withdraw their solidarity if they're denied the label? Comrades, is that the hill you want to die on? And btw, you do realise that for many feminists, the term "male feminist" is inextricably linked to people like Hugo Schwyzer and Victor Svyatski? Believe me, being called a male ally is a good thing. Male feminist - rather less so.

No, I'm fairly certain I didn't say that they would stamp their feet about a name.