Is pubic hair a feminist issue?

[Pipbin]

Sorry if this has been done to death already.

Following on from another thread elsewhere there seems to be a divide between women who do and don't remove their pubic hair.

Some women who don't do it see it as another form of control that men have over women. That women are removing all their hair to please men and because it is now being normalised.
The women who do do it do so because they want to and they like it.

So, is it a feminist issue? Should women be able to do what they chose or are women doing it because it's another form of control even if they are doing it through their own free choice?

I don't think there is, when it comes down to something like this. Surely feminism is about women being able to make choices like this without judgement or having to justify such choices?

It's not about individuals having to justify anything no totally not.

But the massive increase in the last few decades bears looking at. Why the change, what drove it, who benefits, will fashion go backwards or is this with us forever, what is the next thing, is any of this stuff good for society / women as a whole, does it matter etc etc etc

Grooming is for sure a feminist issue and a society issue as well really. Different standards of appearance, dress codes, pressure to conform etc etc. All interesting stuff.

Clearly women are the "ornamental" sex the world over, which is a fundamental problem isn't it. All of this feeds out from there.

I think there is a feminist way to behave - support and promote other women & girls, avoid doing harm to other women & girls, identify and call out sexism, campaign for equality. I don't think the presence of body hair is mandatory.

What Tondelayo said.
Except for the day of the week, though

I shave my legs (I will freely admit) because I was conditioned into thinking it was what grown women did. I do not shave them in the winter (and they are seriously hairy). I shave my pits because they get mingy otherwise (don't know why, DH's don't). I have arm fur: if it was dark, I'd succumb to the whole social set-up and wax it. I think I'd be too self-conscious to leave it.

I was horrified when I was in my early 20s and realised that my mother must have had the full shave to give birth to me in the 60s: it sounded like total barbarism and I was relieved to find things had moved on since. I'd never, ever, shave my bush: I like it. It's part of being an adult, like having boobs.

"I don't disagree that it is a feminist issue, but I think the notion that there is a feminist way to behave, is equally as bad for women as life before feminism."

Not as bad, no - marital rape, the vote, keeping your job on marriage and all that jazz.

Anyhow...

There was a thread about what consensual behaviours would be inconsistent with feminism - it was started by a troll but nonetheless got some good replies! On the whole, they were things like picketing abortion clinics, colluding in FGM, being a pimp etc i.e. activities that actively harmed other individual women.

I think some choices are more supportive of the liberation of women as a class than others, sure. But the red line issues are the ones above.

I agree pilchards

But at the same time I don't like being condemned and questioned about my choices. We can do what you've said, we can investigate why without questioning the choices of others and belittling them. This isn't aimed at anyone here by the way, it's comments I've received on this site before in the name of feminism.

Feminism is about equality. It's about women being free to make their own choices about their lives and not being controlled by what men want from them.
There is little point in removing men's authority over women for it to be replaced by feminist's authority over women.
No there isn't a feminist way to behave. Women should be free to make their own choices without being pressured to conform.

Yes I get that Grays.

I was going to write a whole load of stuff but I got a bit bogged down (around people on the feminist boards aren't always feminists but then who am I to judge their feminism and arrrghhhh) so I stopped.

Feminism is of course, at its very root, about giving us all choices. The same choices that men have as a matter of course.

Men can choose to be hairy - there's no judgement made, there are no Daily Mail articles written about a man with hairy armpits.

Women cannot make this choice without belittment, judgement and general derision.

Let's be honest here, hair, be it pubic, body or head is a definite feminist issue and one that is immensely hard to kick against in everyday life.

I do think there are actions that are feminist though, but that they aren't necessarily undertaken by people who identify as feminists.

So like, signing a petition about abortion rights is a feminist action, and lots of people do that, whether they identify as feminists or not.

Well said Turn It In

I think I sort of dislike the continuous comparison to what males do and just because they do it we should as though to show we're equal.

That isn't what we're about surely?

Er. Yes. That is what it's all about gray. Equality.

No that's not what I meant.

I meant the insinuation that to show we're equal we must act like men.

That isn't equality.

We're not fighting to be like men. We're fighting to be treating in an equal way as men.

Not 'act' like men, no.

But being judged by a more exacting standard than men? Yes, that's a feminist issue (could relate to, say, the stud/slag double standard as well)

I think that noting that men have a wider range of (genuine, free, easy) choices in some (many) areas especially when you take a global view is important.

I don't think the idea is that we should copy them though, the idea is that it would be nice if women had the same range of choices (free easy genuine) etc even if actually lots wouldn't exercise it.

Of course men are restricted in other different ways, which people do like to mention when restrictions on women are talked about.

I suppose it's like. Work. Now women are becoming more common at higher levels in lots of industries. It's not that they weren't allowed to before (in more recent history) but there were other barriers. Now those barriers are going and so it doesn't take a singularly brave, strong, single-minded woman to do it, it's more accessible to more women, and so more women do it, and things continue in a virtuous circle.

On a more minor note, if more women went out with hairy legs in summer, I'd feel more comfortable not shaving, and I suspect other women would start to give it a miss as well. Which would be good. probably lots would still choose to, but it wouldn't be really really unusual not to IYSWIM. I would like that. Although I might still shave them sometimes anyway.

Sorry I;m on stream of consciousness posting mode tongiht!

Yes I know. Again, I'm sorry if my point hasn't been put across too well it might work better if you read it in the context of my other posts. About how we should have the choice. How we should be able to do what we wish without judgement, not 'men are allowed to do it so you should do it otherwise you're a bad feminist'.

Pilchard you have put it how I wish I could have. I shan't blame the wine

Women cannot make this choice without belittment, judgement and general derision
But the solution to that, is not to put pressure onto women to stop any grooming that they do want to do.

I completely agree Grays - I don't feel that I have to look, behave or in any way do what men do, in order to have equality.
Equality is about equal value in society and equal ability to make our own choices without pressure from other people - men or women.

Back to the workplace, a lot of people say, well men have to wear these boring suits and uncomfortable ties, so that's not a choice, women have a much bigger choice.

But both are restricted really, just in very very different ways.

It would be great if there was genuine free choice, and a woman turning up in a male-cut suit or a man putting on some heels wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

If all women decided not to shave their legs in the summer at the same time then we could all go hairy. But no one wants to be the one to take the first step.

Good point pilchard. The androneous (is that spelled correctly?) look is quite up at the minute, but it's just a trend isn't it. Meaning it isn't done for the right reasons, it's just fashionable.

It would be great if there was genuine free choice, and a woman turning up in a male-cut suit or a man putting on some heels wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

That would be good. It would be great if people could wear clothes of the opposite gender because they liked them, not for any reason of being trans.

I remember the tutting when Sinead O'Connor was on Top of the Pops with her shaved head.

There is a bit of pressure on this thread to make women justify their grooming decisions.

It's nothing against the billions of pounds spent marketing hair removal products, cosmetics, cosmetic surgery, hair dye etc. If you want to talk about pressure on women, that's where you start.