Are there any forms of consensual behavior that would 'disqualify' someone from being a feminist?

[willkeaveney62417]

Are there any forms of consensual behavior that would 'disqualify' someone from being a feminist?

Oh dear, I seem to have fallen into the trap of discussing a book I haven't read. Of course any research based on a heterosexual partnership model with gay and lesbian couples thrown in for contrast is heteronormative - that's almost a textbook definition of heteronormativity. There is nothing at all wrong with discussing the domestic labour of women in heterosexual relationships, but if you ignore same-sex relationships you run the risk of a) (wrongly) assuming that these are not affected by patriarchal power structures and b) ignoring the fact that reproductive labour is not tied to physical sex, it is gendered, it is situated within a broader power differential that is not confined to the private sphere. Unpaid labour, and especially gendered unpaid labour forms the basis of large parts of the capitalist economy. This topic is far too important, imo, to reduce to the question of why men won't do the washing up.
Am willling to concede I may be doing the author a grave injustice, so I suppose I had better read it at some point.

And yes, I entirely agree with museumum. Would also like to add that supporting legislation curtailing women's access to abortion and other reproductive choices cannot, in my opinion, be reconciled with feminism.

ignoring the fact that reproductive labour is not tied to physical sex, it is gendered

Sorry, I don't understand this sentence. What is the difference?

Because I stated what I thought was your position; after your response I still wasn't sure if I'd stated it correctly, so I politely asked for further clarification after thanking you for your response.

My position is that pimping and punting should be criminal activities and prostitution should not.

Ok, swan, it's been a while since I read it and I'm actually not sure what she says about same sex relationships. So I won't talk about it further.

There's a thread about it on feminist book club if you wanted more background.

Museumum, I agree with all of those.

Still I guess my position on sex workers is that yes, there is a contribution to generally shit things for women. But there is also a contribution in my shaving my legs. In my wearing makeup. A bigger/small contribution? I don't know. I'm not prepared to make that call. I shave my legs because I like it, but I'm under no illusions as to WHY I like it. Most of the strippers I know feel quite similarly about stripping and I don't find that position incompatible with feminism - we can't all be fighting the good fight, all the time. Or, we could, but most of us choose not to be.

Some reproductive labour is tied to physical sex.

yonic since I have answered your question what is your views on women colluding with the sex industry? My post wasn't restricted to prostitution nor even about the point you wanted clarified.

I wish that they would not, but I do not lay anything like equivalent blame at their door than I do the organiser who says "I know what our darts players need alongside them. Totty!"

Sorry Briar, I could have been clearer (I'm actually pretending to work) - I mean that you don't have to be an actual woman to end up doing many forms of reproductive labour (childbirth and breastfeeding being obvious exceptions - thanks almond), but that doing it places you in a lower regions of the power differential generally occupied by women/migrants/people of colour/the unemployed and that the work itself is seen as inherently feminine and therefore more "natural" and less valuable.

But I do not lay anything like equivalent blame at their door than I do the organiser who says "I know what our darts players need alongside them. Totty

Why not? Do you think they aren't exercising their own free will ? They could say no. Do you think they genuinely don't realise they contribute to perpetuating this form of sexism ? Or are they happy to play along with it?

What about the Sam Foxes, Linda Lusardis, Katy Prices? They are not stupid women. It was in their own financial interest to maintain the commodification of female bodies.

And in the interests of full disclosure that^^is me under my AIBU name.

Iirc, Sam fox was taken along to the sun by an older adult (her mother?) before she even turned 15 and Linda lusardi was coerced by her DP.

Katie price is not in the sex industry, she is a celeb. I grant you she has the most power of the 3.

Why don't I attribute equal blame? Because those who pay typically have more power than those who are paid.

YMMV.

Oh, I see.

Oh, Linda lusardi isn't who I thought she was. Scrub that bit whilst I read about her...

Ok, for the three famous ex page 3 models you have named, how many women have done the exact same piece of modelling and got nothing for it but their day's fee. Tens of thousands?

And yet you think the women have as much power as the owners of the Sun because a few have some kind of fame? I think only Katie Price is worth a significant amount of money of the three of them, right?

But none of the Page 3 girls whether they made a fortune or just got their daily fee had to do it. What is your explanation why they do?

I never said anything about them having more power than the owners of the papers. They had as much power as any other woman in the UK not to do it, which is actually a very considerable amount.

Lusardi was a slightly older contemporary of Sam Fox. She went on to a bit of soap acting.

Have I got the wrong Katie? I meant she who used to be Jordan. She started in the sex industry.

I consder feminism to be a belief system.

There are actions that would make you a confused feminist, or a weak feminist, or a feminist with cognitive dissonance issues, but not actions that can in themselves make you "not a feminist".

Yep, I see her as famous for being a sleb not a p3 girl - all her money is from the former, AFAIK.

No , you never said anything about them having more power but when I said I didn't lay anything like the blame at their door, you said why not. The power differential is why not.

We disagree, I'm not going to persuade you and you're not going to persuade me. No doubt we'll both survive. And frankly, I don't want to give Will any more fun than he's already having.

Au revoir.

^I consder feminism to be a belief system.

There are actions that would make you a confused feminist, or a weak feminist, or a feminist with cognitive dissonance issues, but not actions that can in themselves make you "not a feminist".^

Agree.

I get confused when anyone says they're not a feminist. To me that says 'I believe women are lesser than men'. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't think that, you're a feminist. It's a broad church, for me.

"MorrisZapp

Do you mean like giving Jeremy Clarkson a bj?"

Oh that HAS to win MN quote of the day! Made me laugh SOOO hard!!

Sorry, only read first page, can see the debate's got much weightier ( still fucking funny tho..,)

Oh dear should have known thread wouldn't have ended well ( still chuckling to myself tho and still a feminist.)

[ note to self: RTFT before posting!]