Feminist Pub XVIII, in which the Bluestocking greets the first signs of spring with a glass of something soothing

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Just starting this one as the last is nearly full

Doctor. Hope it goes well.

Lo, I have returned from my journey across time and space. Well, across half a century and the other side of London, anyway.

Buffy, I am not a psychologist, but I would like a brief explanation of what theories of performativity might be.

Evening all!

Performativity? I bet it's one of those things not amenable to 'brief explanation' (but will be glad if someone can prove me wrong).

I don't know any epistemiwhatsit, but I think it means 'acting the part'; because women are more socialised generally to display empathetic traits etc, it may be easier for women with ASD type conditions to 'perform' NT behaviour than it is for a man with the same severity of the condition.

yonic Have you been name changing?

I am so confused!

Lovely new spring pub. Whisky mac for me -- it might be spring but we've been sitting in feckin haar all day and it feels like January all over again.

Women are also socialised not to say what they really think/feel, unless they're in a "safe" space and are sure no one will be harmed by the disclosure (ie very rarely). I imagine if you're on the spectrum that contributes to appearing NT.

Hello. Lovely new pub, I like the yellow walls.

I'm just going to gibber in the corner and pet the goat after a trying day at work, where one of my pupils informed me that I'm a fucking bitch. Hey ho, at least i won't have to deal with that particular boy for the rest of the week now he's been excluded. Such fun.

Thank you for explaining.

Today, I will mostly be performing diligent and dutiful employee. Possibly. It's going to be a strain for my 10am meeting, which is a videoconf, so I shall have to develop some level of poker face and no silently swearing, as is more usual with these particular participants, for whom I have little time. Had a bit of an outburst when said meeting was initially planned; they are people who make me think quite a bit about equality will be achieved when incompetent women are promoted in the same way as incompetent men and how who you are counts more than how capable you are. Please can you all send be vibes of professionalism and serenity for that hour...

Thanks Buffy - I think I got what you meant.

So that performativity stuff basically sounds like how cultures are constructed. Does that make sense?

As far as applications to markets are concerned, I thought it was common knowledge that markets are all about confidence. Or as I've always thought of it, 'economics' has 'con' in the middle.

I'm nowhere near as uber qualified as you buffy, but inevitabley i do drop something above everyday knowledge into my appts (im a 3rd year human bio student, but there are psych modules in my degree) and as soon as i mention whatever it is, their backs go up.

Of course, because of my physical health problems and the 28 years it took to diagnose my eds, along with the trouble i had with the gynae claiming there was nothing wrong with me (although re-referral then diagnosed problems as severe...), i get rather paranoid about all health professionals! oh and not to forget the community psych who told me all of my problems were pnd. Trouble with referral coming through shortly after squeezing a baby out never mind the depression and anxiety i had for at least 10 years before my first child!

nothing about social life and interpersonal interaction seems 'natural' or instinctive to me

This struck a chord. I have always been rather rubbish at picking up social cues and find strong emotions in others very distressing, all of this led to bullying at school and challenges at work if I'm in a new situation.

I've always put it down to inadequate socialisation as a child since we moved a lot and I was alone a lot (same as for puppies!) but I suppose my brain might not "do" emotional reading very well? My mum is the same, she really doesn't get on with the world very well. But then maybe I've just learned from her?

Oh I didn't mean that emotional interpretation issues all stem from lonely childhoods, sorry
Just for me I mean. I think there might be multiple causal factors in my case.

The negativity thing is interesting. I have read about "meta programs" ie different ways of thinking (pop rather than proper psychology I suspect). One is "towards" and "away" people, essentially about how people plan - towards people need to focus on the positive end state, away people need to focus on all the things that might stop them. Generally each thinks the other is going about things in a puzzling and incorrect way.

Not sure if that's relevant either

DH sometimes takes the piss by pretending something is what it isn't (lying to me to wind me up, basically, not malicious). It has taken me years and years to pick up on it and even now I still fall for it occasionally. I just take everything at face value.

SoMuchForSubtlety and Buffy - I also moved around a lot as a child (seven primary schools and a year of home ed) and it got to the point where I just didn't bother interacting with the other children any more - what was the point in making friends if we were just going to move in a couple of months anyway? I'm very introverted to start with so social interactions are hard work for me. When we finally stopped moving, I didn't realise that it was our "final stop" as were, so as usual, I hadn't bothered making friends and then was stuck the next 8 years with children who had formed an opinion of me as a weirdo who didn't talk to people and was instead rather rude. So I was absolutely socially inept when I left school. I didn't know how to interpret tone of voice, body language, subtlely - you had to tell me things exactly as they were or I wouldn't understand. University was no better, I made very few friends as I was so "rude" - never intentionally, I just didn't know how to talk to people.

Eventually I worked in a pub where I used my time to really watch how people interacted and read lots of books on body language. One of the other staff there was, well, how to describe her? She was popular, knew how to socialise and was kind enough, but also blunt and took no bollocks, so she would tell me when I was cocking up socially. It was actually hugely helpful! I was much better after working there, and more able to interact with people, though I never initiated any conversations or friendships. At parties etc I'd still just stand in the corner and not talk to anyone unless they approached me. DH is unfortunately the same, so when we went out together we'd be a pair of wallflowers. His excuse is that he's a twin, so they always had each other, and because of that he reckons he also missed out on a lot of learning to interact with people who weren't his brother.

Living in Israel also helped. They're a very blunt people, so I fit right in with my less-than-subtle manners. In fact, they thought I was rather reserved! It was such a relief to me to find out that the British way of never quite saying what you mean was just a British thing - it wasn't universal and I wasn't unique in wondering why people don't just say what the fuck they mean. I felt so much at home there; I wasn't the weirdo with no manners, I was just normal.

But I think it was an MN meet-up that finally got me to put myself out there. I went to one where I knew no-one and made myself flit about from group to group, being a social butterfly, talking to everyone. It was absolutely performative, but so wonderfully liberating. And now I'm quite happy to just go up to people and start chatting.

It's taking me until the age of 40, though, to teach myself how to behave in public without making a complete tit of myself. It has been a very hard slog. I don't know if I'm slightly on the ASD spectrum; I'm certainly at the spectrum end of people who aren't on the spectrum, if that makes sense. I'm still a raging introvert and my mental health suffers hugely if I don't get a lot of time alone.

Wow, that got long. TL:DR - yes, I totally get what you mean by "performing" normal social interactions. I do it too. But it is becoming more natural to me the more I do it, even though I was a late starter!

SoMuchForSubtlety i have enormous problems due to moving around a lot as a child. i can't talk to my parents about it though as they take it as me blaming them, when i don't - it was a fact of their careers (well, dad's actually). but it doesn't stop me from having had very great difficulties as i struggle to move relationships on from fairly superficial pleasing each other early stages to actually something deeper, which might withstand disagreements. like you, i find strong emotions in others very distressing, and i rarely react very emotionally in RL because i fear that it will make me needy and will stop people liking me (because i'm stuck in the early stages of a friendship iyswim).

it's very interesting about the "saying what you mean" and how that affects different people (particularly with ASD of course). my instinct in RL is to rarely express myself directly - always suppress, suppress, suppress - as it deflects attention away from me and doesn't conflict with my need to please. i get over it reasonably well, but it is difficult

i think you would all find me a nightmare in RL!

Buffy's poist of 09:42:11: you have written what I wanted to write.

I don't know what "instinctive" means. I gather data, process them while taking into account other relevant information, make interpretation, and react accordingly by thinking if conclusion (a) is correct I should do X, etc, and then find the least offensive (to others, if I'm in a good mood, to me, if not) path to take. Is that not normal?