The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

Personally, I would rather the cops in my country do something else other than spend hours lurking outside buildings so they can hand out small fines to buyers of sex and possibly causing a prostitute to lose her home and children.

Oh Fay.

Could you further clarify your bizarre lecturer thread?

What, like rape, fayyive? They take dna from the punters they catch and unsolved rape cases have been solved as a result.

Do you mean like that? Is good, huh? Seems rapists can be punters and punters can be rapists. Who knew?

Of course, Fayyive may not see rape as a serious crime. Just guessing there.

He may also not see sex trafficking as a serious crime. Also just guessing there. Obviously, the Swedish police are just out to "get" the children of prostitutes - nothing more.

I really don't see how labelling ALL prostitutes as trafficked victims is going to help the ones who really are trafficked? Perhaps someone could help me out on that one?

"He may also not see sex trafficking as a serious crime."

I'm still female. My gender hasn't changed.

And just as a reminder- trafficking, rape and sexual exploitation of minors are still illegal crimes under legalisation or decriminalisation.

I invite everyone reading this thread to listen to the full 10mins btw - fayyive has unsurprisingly misrepresented it there.

The Swedish model is built on the model of equality for men and women, they state that equality cannot exist if a man can spend his wages on paying a woman to do whatever he wants on the way home from work. "That, my friends, is not equality."

He also states that education of the punter is key. Men are paying into organised crime, and do not realise it. Punting is a source of shame in Sweden and rightly so.

Simon Haggstrom states that he is not here to speak up for 'happy hooker' - they have a strong voice already in the media. He is here to be voice for te voiceless - the trafficked woman. He says that many traffickers will tell the women that they will get 10yrs for what they're doing - and the first thing he tells them is that they have not committed any crime. They are free to go, they can pack a a case and come with him for help. They have not committed any crime.

"They have not committed any crime."

Unless they are working in a brothel, just to add.

They can also be branded as suffering from self-harm and have their children taken or be kicked out their homes if they are exposed.

But not to worry, the police spent hours outside listening and luckily got enough evidence to hand the buyer a fine! So all is good!

But don't take my word for it, here's what Carina Edlund, a prostitute in Sweden has to say:

lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014_03_01_archive.html

“Before even thinking of a law that criminalises men who buy sex, UK politicians should hear from Swedish sex workers like myself about how we have treated under the law. We are still criminalised if we work together in apartments, we risk losing our home if we sell sex there even if we own it, social workers treat as like children and we can even lose custody of our kids because we are seen as victims suffering from a form of self-harm who can't take care of ourselves. This law should be taken away not exported to other countries.”

So I ask again, who does the law harm more- the buyers, or the prostitutes?

Do you - regardless of your gender (I really don't care about your gender) see rape and sex trafficking as serious crimes? I would hope that regardless of your gender you would. But hey, what do I know?

"do you see rape and sex trafficking as serious crimes?"

Yes.

But I don't think the buying and selling of sexual services in private between consenting adults should be a crime, and off the top of my head Amnesty Int, the World Health Org and the UN HIV and the Law share my opinion.

And like I already pointed out, the crimes you mentioned are already illegal (and enforced) where consensual prostitution is legal.

Oh he's linked to Lauras life and thoughts. I'm soooooo surprised, we've never seen that before have we.

What else have you got fayyive (I bet we we can guess). The prostitute who was actually killed by her partner in Sweden, in a dv incident, who the pro-lobby have shamefully claimed as a victim of the nordic model? Come on what else?

None of that detracts from the fact that prostitution is down in Sweden,and sex traffickers see Sweden as a poor bet, because punters are criminalised.

Nothing to say about Carina Edlund's quote? Or are you going to tell me her group the Rose Alliance is also ran by the pimp lobby?

What, you mean Pye Jacobssen? LOL.

Keep going, please.

Who is that and why is that funny?

Are you simply refusing to listen to anyone who says anything you don't want to hear, even if it's coming from someone this law will affect the most- a Swedish prostitute?

Pye Jacobsens is LOL because she founded the Rose Alliance and is quoted on interview that she 'no longer sells sex herself.' Would she go back to selling sex? asks the intervierwer? 'No probably not, but it's good to know it's there if I ever have to' So no - another sex activist campaign fronted by someone who no longer sells sex themselves

Next?

I'm off to bed soon, you'll have to be quick, fayyive. We want an an actual sex activist campaign fronted by someone who actually sells sex now. Like, a current sex worker. I'm awful suspicious there aren't any.

Why is sex-work held to some kind of state of super-justification that, in order to be seen by some as a credible activist in it, you have to enjoy it and be currently selling it? Why cant it be a past job you moved on from? Why cant it be something you disliked or even hated doing? Why cant it just be a recognition that others will 'walk the same ground' and you have a desire that the ground is not as harsh for them as it was for you?

Same old, same old, Fay.

Oh, I see you still haven't posted in Politics about the Green Party, though it's surely obvious to you now that you aren't helping them win votes with this thread.

I wonder why not.

Oh and Fay?

Upthread, it was discussed that there were one or two features of the Swedish model that interacted badly with other aspects of Swedish law and that these weren't an intrinsic part of the principle of criminalising the buyer not the seller. Have you forgotten?

And are there any other Green Party policies you think are relevant to feminists? Cannabis (hmmm) aside?

Or are you more of a single issue person?

I talked to DH about this. He is Danish and they have something similar to the Swedish model. He was harping on about how he didn't think there was anything wrong with it and then I asked the most important question, 'What would you think of the laws of our son or daughter were a prostitute?' Well I have never seen anyone do a 180 so quickly. He said that when you put it that way then I am sure 99% of the Danish people wouldn't agree with the legalization of prostitution.

It will never be accepted to me that it is ok to sell sex. People who are doing this need help and if means they are arrested to enable this then I don't think that's a bad thing.

"Pye Jacobsens is LOL because she founded the Rose Alliance and is quoted on interview that she 'no longer sells sex herself.' Would she go back to selling sex? asks the intervierwer? 'No probably not, but it's good to know it's there if I ever have to' So no - another sex activist campaign fronted by someone who no longer sells sex themselves "

I detect hypocrisy. Either here or in another thread I've seen numerous users say exited women/survivors are the ones who we should listen to most. Yet here we have a survivor you are basically laughing at.