The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

Ok, on a practical level they are currently regulated differently, so why should that change?

On a philosophical level, a number of porn actresses and actors are unlikely to be there of completely free choice, so porn carries many of the same power issues as prostitutuon.

Does that help?

What's your view?

I didn't think anyone here (on either side of the debate) was proposing that prostitution should be illegal anyway. The question is about whether punters should be criminalised

Sorry for not replying, life got very busy and still is. I have been watching some documentaries, discussing the Nordic model, German super-brothels and effects of legality/illegality of types of prostitution (street, escort, brothel). By 'grounded in reality' I meant not fudging around with research or wording to illustrate what you want.

The question is about whether punters should be criminalised...

I would personally like them to be criminalised, as I find what they do odious, but the effect of that under the Nordic model is to make the lives of female sex workers more difficult and hazardous, by their own account. Sex workers in the UK do not want the Nordic model and advocate a wider adoption of a thing called the Merseyside Model:

msmagazine.com/blog/2013/03/13/cry-for-the-merseyside-model/

@Knickerful
I was referring to all of the above that posted after and in regards to me, not just to Buffy.

"I didn't take your original post to be only about career, if that is how you meant it?"
YES that is exactly how I meant it.
If you read all my posts over the last few pages that is the perspective I'm coming from, that prostitution is centred around money and whilst you may not stop the educated women chooisng to do this discreetly, you can effectively minimise the amount of women entering prostitution as a 'career choice' because that is the only way they can make money. The inferior quote is for those who should never feel oppressed and be given further education and skills which creates options and opens doors and alternatives to earn money other ways.

This quote should also be harnessed by carers who should be pro-actively protecting anyone with Mental Health issues who cannot see this reality for themslves. It really is quite simple - it is you arguing with me. LOL
If I'm disagreeing with anyone that beligerently attacks my intentions then I take that firmly on the chin, but you'll never change my view.

@Dad
That's an interesting article. Merseyside certainly focusses on safety, so that aligned with Nordic model could be a good solution, alongside the government investing in career incentives for women.

There is currently quite a bit of crossover between porn and prostitution.

I know a lot of people think consent can't be purchased. For example when a porn director pays a female actress to be in his movie and he is also a performer. Is it any different from the transaction between a prostitute and a John.

At the moment they are regulated differently. However, criminalising the buying of sex would surely impact pornography (which many would be happy with).

". It really is quite simple - it is you arguing with me. "

Yes, I am arguing with you. I don't believe i am doing so belligerently.

I don't think it is simple. If you have been physically or emotionally abused, are dependent on drugs or a pimp etc, then it's simply an unhelpful statement that "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Whilst it might be simplistically true, in the same way that "if you eat more, you won't be anorexic" is simplistically true, it's not helpful in a large number of cases, and that's why you got the push back you did.

Or, y'know, what Buffy said.

You're a lost rebel without a cause here.

We're all in agreement on the points bar the context in which that quote should be taken and the way in which I intended it to be. From the money driven career choice persepctive.

LIFT yourself out of the confusion ladies, influence people not to be oppressed or negatively impacted by negative people. Thats it, no more no less.

Go to go, i'm making positive choices and that keeps me busy. Have a good day.

Gosh, pand0ra, I thought the conversation was going pretty well until your last post.

"Lift yourself out of the confusion ladies"???

See ya around.

Lol... can I call bullshit now?

LIFT yourself out of the confusion ladies, influence people not to be oppressed or negatively impacted by negative people. Thats it, no more no less.

Don't need to lift myself out of anything, thanks, I tend to use evidence based stuff, instead of platitudes.

Your last 2 posts do enlighten me a bit though.

How many women who have been in prostitution do you, and a SENIOR recruitment bod place each month? And how many do you pay to use as a masturbatory aid?

Oh, and also FWIW, none of us have needed to utilise a thesaurus in the making of these posts. It says a lot about your view of women that you would think that such erudition as ours would require the use of such a tome. Allow me to elucidate:

You believe that women who are manouvered into prostitution, by the men in their lives, are in some way allowing themselves to be inferior, and that inferiority comes not from the lives they've lived or the abuse they've suffered, but because they lack the presence of mind to just stop feeling inferior and becoming the chair of the CBI.

You see the prostitution of women as a discrete problem, completely unaffected by circumstance, and simply a financial choice.

You see women as uneducated and unable to construct a cogent rebuttal to your fatuous points without recourse to reference books.

Here's a link to a dictionary to help you with the long words that Buffy will use. I believe it also has access to an online thesaurus, which might aid you further.

If you post again please god, no you might try not to be such a currish boil-brained fustilarian to misquote the bard , ok?

HTH

If that's your interpretation of it, then I am sure you're correct.

Well done on the derail, and failing to answer the questions posed.

I'm done with you.

___

^^ Line Drawn

So, back on topic after the massive thread derail....

What is the issue with the Merseyside, Nordic models and what are the issues with focus on investment in education; making it cheaper and more accessible, driving career options and focus on the support systems?

influence people not to be oppressed or negatively impacted by negative people

Actually I agree with that statement in certain purely work situations (which by the way you never mentioned to begin with). I don't think there is anything to be gained by just going on about how hard it is for women and reinforcing negativity.

Where I utterly part company with you is the notion that this mantra is a panacea or that it has the slightest relevance to prostitution. I made the "sticks and stones" comment and I stand by it.

Your mantra only works where the oppressed person already has a degree of power and autonomy and needs encouragement to use it effectively.

Oh and short version of my views prostitution is not a viable career option. It degrades all involved. Every time the buyer hires the use of another's genitals is a loss of (what little) decency and humanity that person had.

DadWasHere wrote - "I would personally like them to be criminalised, as I find what they do odious, but the effect of that under the Nordic model is to make the lives of female sex workers more difficult and hazardous, by their own account."

Why the assumption that "their" accounts are representative? Some may say their lives will become more difficult and hazardous, but what if "they" are actually only a tiny minority of prostitutes?

Some prostitutes in the UK do indeed predict their lives will be worse under the Nordic model, but I think on all the MN FWR threads that I've read about prostitution, which have attracted many posts opposing the Nordic model, the opponents always cite the same two prostitutes actually working in Sweden under the Nordic model, who attribute their worse life situation to the Nordic model, as if their particular hardships (house removal or child removal) would be impossible in countries where punters are not criminalised.

Housing and children are removed from prostitutes in many countries and under various prostitution regimes. It is not unique to the Nordic model. More generally, these two misfortunes happen to women around the world, whether they are prostitutes or not.

So in summary, the general consensus seems to be in favour of Merseyside and Nordic models and for further education to be cheaper / free / more accessible.

If the Green Party were to align their policies in this regard (too late to change 2015 manifesto but perhaps for 2020 elections) - would you vote for them?

I'm not in favour of the Nordic model.
I would prefer prostitution was criminalised, albeit with nominal punishment /admonishments for the women; although if a woman were repeatedly operating in a way which caused disturbance to neighbours that should be taken into account.

Nothing would persuade me to vote for the Greens, or UKIP or SNP for that matter.

Without wishing to put too fine a point on it this "merseyside model" should really be what's going on as routine. It is in law illegal to rape, rob or abuse anyone prostitute or not. We as a society other sex workers and don't really care, and until this is rectified whatever laws we put into place won't make much of a difference.

I am reminded that Andrea Dworkin herself did sex work, which I think puts her particular brand of feminism into a stark context. It feels to me that this issue really is a front line for feminism. For as long as we allow one class of women to be commodified, and used we are all diminished.

As to this you can only let people belittle and abuse you if you consent to let them. It may be the only real power you have in life is the power you have over yourself, and everything else is an illusion, but then again our own personal illusions hold a great deal influence in what we choose, and those illusions we are very rarely aware of.

" For as long as we allow one class of women to be commodified, and used we are all diminished."

Well put.

Still

you said I would prefer prostitution was criminalised, albeit with nominal punishment /admonishments for the women; although if a woman were repeatedly operating in a way which caused disturbance to neighbours that should be taken into account.

I think the main reason I'd disagree with you (apart from the obvious one about women in street prostitution only being there as a job of last resort) is that, by criminalising the women, you could well be destroying any chance they have of finding employment even should they be able to exit safely, due to their having a criminal record for soliciting.

I'm not sure I'd want to legislate in such a discriminatory way against women who almost certainly have had situations in their past or present which have lead them to this pass.

I've lived in places which were considered notorious red light districts both here and abroad, so I'm aware of the 'nuisance' issues. I'm just not sure that the best way to tackle those is to ensure the women involved have little choice but to continue in the field IYSWIM?

apologies if that doesn't make huge amounts of sense, my painkillers are being lovely right now, no doubt I'll blush in the morning!

I'm not a criminal lawyer but I suppose I am thinking of something along the lines of fixed penalties with fairly low penalties which don't show up. I take your point but I'm not comfortable with 1 of the parties in this automatically having no culpability, ever.

So far as the happy hookers in their own flats I'm not in the least persuaded neighbours should have to put up with their block being partly turned into a brothel; nor that street prostitution should be tolerated in streets with a high residential element or indeed business element where non punters and non prostitutes are going about their everyday lives.

One of the many objections to Edinburgh council turning a blind eye to "saunas" and "massage parlours" is that the traditional construction of Victorian tenements in the working class areas was often commercial premises on the ground floor and flats on the floors above.

I agree it's very difficult ; possibly criminalisation needs to be phased in at the very end of other measures.