The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

I think the claims against Rachel Moran are ridiculous. She uses her real name and her face is well known. If she had been working in a call centre or going to university during the period she is discussing, there would be former co-workers or flat-sharers popping up to say so.

Still There's no agonising about devising a system whereby children should still be able to acquire illegal fags and booze.

I don't think most feminists are doing this, in general anyway. Theoretically, I would have no objection to it being illegal to sell sex with defences for women who are or have been abused, coerced, are addicts or suffer extreme poverty (i.e. only applicable to "Happy Hookers"). However in practice, that would expose the victimised women to a court process that is generally not favourable to them and which they can't handle. Also, a lot of women coerced by "lover boy" pimps don't recognise the abuse.

I like the analogy with loan sharking - it is illegal to be a loan shark lender but not to be a borrower. That recognises that the consent of the borrower is constrained and subject to abuse.

I think choosing to be a "Happy Hooker" is not a feminist choice (with the acknowledgement that I also have made "not feminist" choices in my own life). I have no problem with this commercial opportunity being removed for the benefit of those women who are suffering in prostitution and for the broader benefit of women in society.

Well put, Flora.

Yes, I agree that we should not disbelieve women unless given very compelling evidence. I do believe Brooke Magnati - I also think she's a dickhead. The two are not mutually exclusive. Not only because of her writing on prostitution, but also because she doesn't even come close to qualifying as a feminist. See for instance this shit nugget:

"Genuinely. I've tried to give a shit about maternity leave and who does the housework, and all I can come up with is, if your job doesn't give you as much time off as you want, suck it up or get another job. If your partner doesn't do the washing-up, same."
www.theguardian.com/books/2011/apr/10/brooke-magnanti-belle-de-jour

A view that would go down like cold sick on Mn, right?

Having said this, I think we should be very wary of anyone who has worked as a pimp seeking to speak for prostituted women. This happens, e.g. this guy who is very prominent in the International Union of Sew Workers...
www.theguardian.com/profile/douglas-fox
why did the guardian even give him the time of day???

and there are more discussed here - prostitutionresearch.com/pre_blog/2012/05/23/pimps_will_be_pimps_whether_ma/

Another thing about Rachel Moran - I think some of the people casting doubt on her (and there have been quite a lot) are not doing it just to discredit Rachel Moran personally, but to signal to other survivors what will happen to them if they speak up: they will be called liars, etc, and people will seek to discredit them, too.

In that guardian article she goes on to say

"It seems a pretty lame preoccupation when there are still eight countries in the world where a woman can legally be put to death for adultery."

Well it makes a change from "but what about FGM!"

Personally don't use handmaiden, any more than I would use "patriarchy's bitch" or similar

Personally I had never heard of the term until I saw it being used on MN , both on this part of the forum and AIBU.

That woman is a skid mark?

One woman in particular is skid-mark personified.

Otherwise - collaborator? Misogynist? Servant of the patriarchy?

I understand where the word is coming from, I just prefer not to use a gendered word to describe the behaviour.

I see what you mean AKnickerful, but it is a gendered phenomenon so it kinda needs to be described in a gendered way. Collaborator doesn't quite work because we all collaborate with the patriarchy to some extent in order to survive. It's those women who actively work against the interests of women who need a descriptor. How about 'traitor'?

I'd tend to use "handmaiden" for the sort of woman who goes on about how feminists are just ugly women who can't get a man. I also quite like "manpleaser". The "cool girl" feminists are handmaidens and manpleasers in denial.

Female patriachists - Fempats?

I wouldn't bandy the term handmaiden about liberally.

However, if the boots fit, there are women who just need to lace hem up and get walking. It's a gendered expression for shitty gendered behaviour.

Hi all

The use of it by others doesn't jar - I just try and avoid it myself.

"Traitor" could work in some situations, Rosie, for those verbally abusing rape victims or similar.

Anyway, did not intend to derail the thread!

what about sexism deniers....like holocaust deniers...only for sexism.

Just finished reading 'The female man'. My first feminist book. I may never recover!

My favourite quote was:

"I have never been to the moon".

hmm patriarchy deniers might be better...or maybe just confusing...

I thought I'd take advantage of the slight derailment and post something my friend sent me - food for thought and quite empowering I thought!