Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

[ArcheryAnnie]

...as they don't actually want to listen to women who disagree with them in any way.

I am not including common-or-garden arseholes here, as the list would be a billion posts long and the internet would explode. I am talking about the kind of man who writes a long, handwringing article in the Guardian about how we should all listen to feminists more, but then deletes most of the comments from actual feminists that are posted on it.

The two currently at the top of my very long List are:
Ally Fogg
Owen Jones

Nominations, please.

The gender neutral loos would have to be cleaned much more often than the women's ones are at present though, because men's loos seem to stink all the time.

Hi Ally! I know you've been reading the thread, however, you seem to have missed the point.

No one cares who's worse out of you or Owen Jones or Richard Dawkins, the point is that you're all horrible human beings.

is for you, please exchange the word song for thread though, yeah?

I always wonder why transactivists blame feminists when they should shove the blame where it lies

Because it's easier, I imagine. There are no consequences for blaming women, but men get violent and that's when it gets real.

Ultimately, we can talk about creating unisex locking loos all we like but the real problem - male violence - has to be dealt with. It's the only solution for women, children and trans people.

This is for you, please exchange the word song for thread though, yeah?

Unisex loos are a-ok by me - preferable if anything! I nice little room, with a sink and a coat hook and a floor-to-ceiling locking door... the dream!

The really difficult issue is prisons and DV shelters. Unisex cannot cannot cannot be the solution to this. Though I understand why many trans women don't get surgery (expense, complications), I think we just have to have a no penises policy. For me, post-op trans women would be ok in these spaces as long as they didn't have a history of violence against women (this is being called 'Allison's Law' but some people, after Allison Woolbert who was recently found to have raped a young family member before transitioning). Pre-op trans women would have to have their own separate shelters unfortunately.

Makes me think of a hilarious tweet I saw a few months ago when new restrictions were introduced on porn made in the UK. On of the sex acts that was banned was "Penetration by any object 'associated with violence'" and one radfem tweeted "omg I can't believe the government just banned penises in porn". lololololol

I am personally really against any one who has owned a penis in a women's prison. Ideally I dont think there should be male guards as it leaves too much risk for abuse. But certainly not prisoners. And not any with any history of violence against anyone.

Ha, Puffins, I saw that! And I saw Ally was crowing about having "won" the thread. And sure, he was a candidate (introduced by me), and if by "won" he meant "was briefly considered, then dismissed as a skidmark" then sure, he won.

Bless him.

FuckOffGroundhog absolutely agree - prison is about as intimate and vulnerable a place as you can get. No people with penises should ever be in women's prisons. And when they have been allowed - as in the case of Paris Green, in prison for torturing an old man to death over a bag of chips - they have had to be moved again after having sex with women inmates (though in Paris' case TO ANOTHER WOMEN'S PRISON, which just makes me boggle). Now, it's seriously unlikely we will ever know whether that was consensual sex or rape, as the women inmates are unlikely ever to tell, but bearing in mind that Paris is a torturer and murderer, and that most women in prison are there for nonviolent offences and often have a history of vulnerability and abuse themselves, I'd not put any bets on it being consensual.

theblackrider Would I? Definitely any with a violent history of any kind yes.

Those who don't, I'll be honest I don't feel comfortable with the idea. I think those socialized as men are more likely to commit abuse and I think being put in a women's prison, well it's a strange and artificial environment and men's prisons are rife with sexual assault. I don't want to bring that to women's prisons. I think provisions should be made for them, but I don't think the risk should be then shouldered by women.

Thing is, a non-trivial number of prisoners are already kept segregated from the general prison population for various reasons - this would just be another reason.

The problem for me is that the prison system is dangerous for all men. We need to sort that out. That's a real problem "mras" should be addressing. It is not the job of women to take on the risk of people socialized as men.

I agree FuckOff - it's not ok that anyone, man or woman, should be subjected to violence in prison. And when they are there because they've been convicted of a non-violent offence it is even worse.

The MRA's always go on about how men are raped too, mainly in prison, but how many of them are members of the Howard League? How many of them are working for prison reform? Because it is in prison that the biggest problem for men re rape arises. What are they doing about it? FA

I'm waiting for schizophrenics and paranoids to start calling their therapists and loved ones "sanesplainers." If you question someone's worldview, no matter how harmful or contrary to evidence that worldview is, you're erasing their validity as a human being!

Yes, MRAs like to go on about men being raped too but who does the raping? Other men. Not women! But if you say this then they say things like "oh well, I suppose that makes it okay then?" Way to miss a point mate...

Thanks Annie, I'm a transman so I do understand and have suffered female oppression, perhaps not as bad as others, but it's been there.
Someone mentioned up thread about it being easier for transmen in the toilets and I can see the point sort of but I want to go into the ladies about as much as I want to wear a dress and present as a woman which is not at all, but the gents is scary because I don't pass very well at the moment.
I just hold it in, it's easier.

One thing with toilets (before I stop beating a dead horse) is that women are, by and large, socialized not to challenge people, or get aggressive. Men aren't. Which is going to affect how easy it is to feel able to go into a bathroom where you don't know if you pass.

Hi Flirtini, if you don't mind me asking (and please tell me to fuck off if you do but I don't see many transmen in these debates so I'm curious to your opinions).

Do you think it's that female socialization means that transmen don't make their voices heard in the same way that transwomen do? Also what do you think about trans people in prisons? I know you say you wouldn't want to go in to a women's bathroom, but the thought of a transman going in to a male prison makes me feel physically sick. Like throwing them to the wolves. :(

Personally I've no issue at all with transmen being in women's bogs, prisons etc. They're not likely to rape me.

In theory I feel the same way - not because I see trans men as women, but because I am aware that they have been socialised female, which brings an entirely different baggage of (lack of) entitlement and expectations. But the only two trans men I have ever known, I would not ever guess they were trans at all if I hadn't known them before transition, so if I'd met them in the wrong circs as strangers they would have set off a fear response in me.

I, too, Flirtini, would really appreciate any insight or opinions on this - though like FuckOff I am prepared for you to tell me to, ah, fuck off, if you don't want to answer!