Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

[ArcheryAnnie]

...as they don't actually want to listen to women who disagree with them in any way.

I am not including common-or-garden arseholes here, as the list would be a billion posts long and the internet would explode. I am talking about the kind of man who writes a long, handwringing article in the Guardian about how we should all listen to feminists more, but then deletes most of the comments from actual feminists that are posted on it.

The two currently at the top of my very long List are:
Ally Fogg
Owen Jones

Nominations, please.

Men's issues do not stem from the oppression of men as a class, do they

No, no they don't, that's true.

I'm not even that keen on the whole "decent men need to stand against VAWG" blackrider, though I admit there is a good intention behind it. I find that "decent" men tend to post these things on the assumption that they have not benefited from sexism and that they would never have a sexist thought - it's all about violence and extreme examples of oppression. They (and this is very general, though I have come across it multiple times) seem to think they're somehow immune to the whole thing, that it's about other men, evil men. They simply will not admit to any part in it, and that infuriates me.

I have not and will never commit a racist act. But I fully accept that I have benefited from white privilege at the cost of non-white people and that I am hopelessly naive about it. Parading how "good" you are by going on FB and saying "we should stand up against [something that is obviously wrong]" is pointless.

I got myself into a Guardian article (hadn't realised the journo would put people in without checking whether they were happy to be put in with full name attached) saying something feminist (basically it was a "Can women have it all?" article, and I said "Funny, no one ever asks this about men") and got pasted below the line. AF was one of the first to pitch in with the pasting (predictably a "What about the menz" whinge). I figured I must have said something right if I'd annoyed him.

In terms of men providing insight, I think they can and do when they are honest about their own thoughts and feelings about women - it sheds a lot of light on the hidden misogyny that most "decent" men deny. Both my DH and a male friend of mine have been very honest about how they've been brought up to see women and are very candid about the sexist attitudes they used to hold and sometimes find they still do hold. It is very enlightening from a feminist point of view because it shows just what you're up against.

I have not and will never commit a racist act.

I don't believe I have either. But I am aware that I grew up in a racist society and that I've absorbed attitudes and behaviours that I perhaps don't even notice. So I'm keen to always challenge myself and make sure that I lose behaviours and attitudes that can hurt, stigmatize and discriminate.

Sorry that should have said I have not and never will deliberately or consciously commit a racist act.

I absolutely accept that I have unexamined racist attitudes though and that these do affect my behaviour towards non-white people.

Rider - apparently because "Can women have it all?" is not at all a loaded question against a hidden background assumption of "women, make a straight choice - be hated for being a careerist ball breaker with shrivelled up ovaries, or be despised for being nothing more than a brood mare." Apparently in AF world, it is a gender neutral question which can be expressed as "People of earth, can you have the moon on a stick?" and thus the answer is equally "no" for both men and women. Nothing gendered to see here, move along folks, move along.

fogg is a class act for sure: pbs.twimg.com/media/B4XwT5fIQAAkKUp.jpg:large

It's very easy to be racist without noticing. I can think of a couple of times when I've done things which were, in retrospect and I wonder how many similar things I've done without ever picking up on it. An example: I was living in an area with a large Asian population and was going through the Yellow Pages making a list of electricians to call. I thought I was picking them at random but then when I looked at my list I'd somehow managed to not pick any Asian names

I therefore wouldn't ever say confidently 'I've never done anything racist'. 'I've never knowingly done anything racist' or 'never deliberately' perhaps, but it's so ingrained that I suspect most of the time we're never even going to realise it.

x post Cailin/Apocalypse, sorry.

Yeah I updated it to say that I've never knowingly done something racist. I have absolutely and definitely allowed racist views to cloud my judgement though.

x-post again :)

i keep reading the AF for ally fogg as anyfucker and getting confused. she won't thank me for that!

Owen Jones!! For silencing every woman who objected to his Guardian piece (about listening to women!!) by labeling them a TERF or a transphobe. And for his total shock and outrage at the suggestion that as a gay man he might enjoy a bit of cunnilingus with a trans man, whilst apparently being fine about lesbians being called terfs if they don't want to suck the cocks of trans women.

And Dr Christian for the same silencing of any woman who questions his ridiculous Penis Isn't Male tweets. Remind me not to book an appointment with him next time I have any problems with my lady bits.

After his comments on rape a few years ago, I think it's safe to say Dr Christian is a class-A prick.

Ah yes. Dr Christian and his encouragement to his cronies followers to pile on to women he disagrees with. What a dude!

Oh yeah, Dr Christian doesn't really qualify for this thread does he, him and his pink and blue brains.

Owen Jones is a fucking tool. His comments on Twitter the past few days are priceless.

and I know that wasn't very nuanced but, really? He really doesn't get the cunnilingus comparison?!

I am gobsmacked by his refusal to see it. Either he is very thick (which I don't think he is) or he is a stonking hypocrite, or he is deep in cognitive dissonance.

He knew about it, there's no doubt of that. He just fails to see lesbians as being as important as gay men. Lesbian lives are just not as valid as gay men's lives either.

So, I'm going for the hypocrite option. It's not ok for people to say things he perceives to be homophobic and it really ISN'T ok to be homophobic but it's just dandy for him to be lesbophobic as hell.... yeah, hypocrisy.

I'd image it's also fine to be in favour of lesbians having to give up their right to decide on who they want as sexual partners without qualification, but it's another matter when it's actually meeeeee having to do sex with fish.

Often there's been speculation here about men being pressurized into sex with female bodied people against their will and why that never really happens. It's partly because it's inconceivable to men that this pressure would apply to them.