Men who parade how "feminist" they are but who can fuck right off...

[ArcheryAnnie]

...as they don't actually want to listen to women who disagree with them in any way.

I am not including common-or-garden arseholes here, as the list would be a billion posts long and the internet would explode. I am talking about the kind of man who writes a long, handwringing article in the Guardian about how we should all listen to feminists more, but then deletes most of the comments from actual feminists that are posted on it.

The two currently at the top of my very long List are:
Ally Fogg
Owen Jones

Nominations, please.

*FuckOffGroundhog", you raise an interesting point. The trans men I've met have gotten really frustrated as they feel trans women are listened to far more and are pusher because they've been socialised as men.

Pusher, not pusher!

Sometimes but there are more transwomen than transmen, and transwomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement. Also, I think (and this is personal opinion here) post hormones it's easier for a transman to pass so they pass and just stay stealth because it's easier that way.
As far as prisons are concerned yes, it's something I have thought about. I don't feel I would belong in a women's prison and I wouldn't want women to feel threatened by my presence. The only option would be a male prison but segregated for safety. I suppose. i have yet to step the wrong side of the law though and have no intention of doing so, so from my personal point of view it is academic.

and transwomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement

This isn't a criticism of you, personally - but I am seeing this more and more, and it is a political attempt to rewrite history to serve a current political direction, most often seen in the "Stonewall happened because of trans women".

First of all, it makes no sense to transfer current concepts of identity onto previous concepts of identity - it might seem neat but many people now think about gender identity in a completely different way than they did in the early days of the modern LGBT movements.

Secondly, I see a lot of rewriting of gay men at Stonewall as trans women, and that just isn't accurate. Some did come out as trans women later on, but a hell of a lot more didn't, and to rewrite the whole thing as a trans women's action serves to erase the identities of many of those who were there - I see this as deeply homophobic. It is also argued that the person who kicked the original riot off was a Black lesbian, Storme DeLarverie, and she is written out of most of these accounts altogether.

This is a bit of a diversion, I know, but I am seeing it more and more taken as truth, when history just doesn't work like that.

Sorry it was poor of me not to fact check beforehand.

Sometimes but there are more transwomen than transmen, and ranswomen were some of the forerunners in the LGBT movement. Also, I think (and this is personal opinion here) post hormones it's easier for a transman to pass so they pass and just stay stealth because it's easier that way.As far as prisons are concerned yes, it's something I have thought about. I don't feel I would belong in a women's prison and I wouldn't want women to feel threatened by my presence. The only option would be a male prison but segregated for safety. I suppose. i have yet to step the wrong side of the law though and have no intention of doing so, so from my personal point of view it is academic.

Thanks for answering flitrinis, I realise these conversations must be difficult for you.

I have never heard of Owen Jones until this thread. So I googled his name and all I got was some blank-faced sixth former.....then I read he is actually thirty??? WTF???

And people actually LISTEN to this fuckwit?

But, well, this is the thing, isn't it?

The reason men are in danger in a men's prison more (or differently) than women are in a women's prison, is patriarchy. It all comes back to that. A man like flirtin is in danger not because men are innately violent, but because patriarchy promotes gendered violence.

I don't understand all the hatred towards Owen Jones? He's.. on our side.

I'm not sure he is.

I think he has good intentions. He is someone who waded into a debate without understanding it, and perhaps without knowing quite how to express himself.

But he has said some pretty awful things.

Quaia, he's shutting down debate by calling anyone who disagrees with a deluded a niche world view promoted by certain transactivists a "TERF". This includes removing any discussion of biological issues(including abortion, healthcare, FGM, etc) from feminist discussion because it's trans exclusionary, saying that male bodied trans women should be allowed in women only space because it's transpohobic to say penises shouldn't be allowed in rape crisis centres or women's prisons, and that lesbians who don't see male bodied trans women as potential sexual partners are also transphobic.

Doesn't feel very "on our side" to me.

Flirtinis, no worries, and my intention wasn't to shut you down. Lots of people would have writte what you did, as it's the version of revised history that is being very heavily promoted at the moment - including most recently by Owen Jones.

Who's side is that Aqui1a, oops, sorry Quaia1?

Like lots of liberal and lefty men, Owen Jones is on our side until we say something he doesn't actually like. (Or even until we say something his new BFF's say he shouldn't like.) At which point, he's no longer on our side, he sides with people who are misogynist and anti-feminist and he doesn't even notice they are. Because he doesn't understand the issues and he hasn't done the reading and he's waded into this debate without getting to grips with it (because it's only about women so it doesn't need to be so carefully researched) and by the time he does, he won't want to back down because he's nailed his colours to the wrong mast but men are very bad at saying "I was wrong" and people are bad at changing their minds about things in which they have an emotional investment, which by that time he will have.

That's it, AskBasil. He's picked a side (against women) and will stick with it, come hell or high water.

I have changed my mind on this. I can't believe how much I've changed my mind on this. But I never expected LGBT solidarity to lead us all down the path of women's subjugation, once again.

I'm very grateful for this board in the way it has helped me understand the trans position. I have always had difficulties in reconciling my understanding of being transgender with my feminism. I have told myself that self identification is paramount and that if someone identifies as female then they are female but I haven't been able to believe it. It has been a kind of cognitive dissonance. But because I am kind, and inclusive, and do not wish to be transphobic, I have maintained my position outwardly whilst inwardly feeling it was wrong.
I still don't believe I am transphobic and I am also grateful to the trans authors of some of the blogs linked to who have described their experience and world view with sense, logic and clarity.

The thread has moved on some what but if anyone is interested (or surprised) Owen Jones has been schooled on twitter again because of a non sense piece he wrote on the conflict in DRC.

He tried to employ the same tactics he used to silence rad FEMS but came up short.

I knew you'd recognise me, Puffins.

Yes but whose side is it? (insert multiple emoticons)

TheBlackRider I believe there's a long history of gay men excluding lesbians from LGBT movements. I don't know much about the history of this, but it's certainly something a lot of lesbians feel very strongly about. Owen Jones is part of a venerable tradition (trigger warning: sarcasm)