Cisgender Lesbians & Trans Women

[kellyandthecat]

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/16/cisgender_lesbians_and_trans_women_how_to_mend_the_rift.html

I am a straight 'cisgender' woman but a friend of mine in America posted this article and I thought it was really interesting to think about 'other' kinds of women. I cant say I know very much about it or feminism with a capital F since I left university but this article definitely makes what it calls TERFS - 'trans-exclusionary radical feminists' look quite bad so I was wondering if anyone on MN had read it and had any thoughts. No one in my house ever wants to have a chat about this stuff

I've never particularly identified with being a girl tbh. Was I supposed to?

I enjoyed Julie's rant. Thanks for linking.

I've just linked that Birchill article on FB. Love it.

In the last year I've been suffering serious feminism burnout caused by stuff like this. It makes me want to distance myself from this type of feminism. Does that make me a TERF?

Consider how lucky you are, born women, before you raise your voice above that of a trans-sister! — that veritable cornucopian horn of plenty which we lucky breed fortunate enough to be born to a sensory smorgasbord of periods, PMT, the menopause, HRT and being bothered ceaselessly for sex by random male strangers since puberty take such flagrant delight in revelling in, shameless hussies that we are.

Tumblr has so much to answer for.

The whole kin thing too. I've never been sure if it's a 'thing' or there are thousands of spoof accounts.

No it's a thing. There was legit and I am not joking a young woman who attended a job centre interview while wearing pixie ears. She was asked to remove her hat but then asked to wear it again fairly promptly. Either she is v committed to her identity or she is hilarious.

I think it all appeals to young people who want to be a bit different and special but the way that any challenge to their visions of themselves is seem as so shocking and disturbing makes it seem to me as though they are in need of some perspective.

I loved that Burchill article a year ago and I still love it now.

Agree that the 'kin' thing is beyond odd. I think it's just a way of attention seeking special snowflake types trying to legitimise their quirks.

I saw this on Reddit yesterday. Made me laugh then roll my eyes.

I honestly don't know if I'm a huge biggot or normal. I've never felt comfortable in my role as 'female in society', but I think the problem is with society not me.

There's an easy test for that Bair. Do you believe that people with penises should be allowed into women only spaces (including refuges and prisons) if they say that they feel like a woman? If your answer to that is no then you are a TERF and a transphobe. If your answer is yes then you are probably still a TERF and a transphobe I just didn't ask the right question.

I see Queen. One might suggest the reason behind the question is not to get an answer but silence?

I'm going to look really dense now

My mil and dad were talking about an hour ago about this subject

I've no idea why...it was quite surreal

Anyway, both couldn't understand why a lesbian wouldn't want to have sex with a trans woman

I did explain that some trans women still have a penis and that was a really big reason but then they said but the person they knew had had all the operations so why wouldn't a lesbian want to have sex with them

I don't know what to say about this, if they have fully transitioned would that make ok with some lesbians and not others, in the same way it would be ok for some straight men and not others?

And I obviously understand that you should only have sex with some one you want to or are attracted to

If anyone could help me with that I would be grateful and I apologise if I have worded anything badly. It's not my intention to offend

Sorry

I know I could google but it really needs to be an idiots guide

Partly because I'm an idiot and partly because it will be easier to explain in an idiots guide version

I think the main problem is the entitlement. I don't know everybody, but my limited experience of humans suggests that they don't like feeling obliged to do stuff. The way some trans women approach the idea of sex with a lesbian whether they've transitioned or not - suggests an obligation on the part of lesbian women to do it for reasons other than mutual desire, such as the wish if the transwoman to feel validated as a lesbian woman. Some people don't really like being treated that way. A few of the lesbians I know from real life are somewhat inclined to completely reject that kind of male norm of behaviour in partners and friends and wouldn't take kindly to an approach that strongly implies they owe anyone anything.

Rufus - The big fat elephant in the room here is PASSING, so here's my two cents on this...

If a trans woman has had surgery and hormone treatment and very much looks like a woman, then I have some sympathy with the 'cotton ceiling' argument (and your Dad and mil). What we really mean when we say that a trans woman 'passes' is that 'they are assumed to be biologically female'. If a lesbian or straight man refused to have sex with that person JUST because they were like "eww gross that person used to look like a man" then that would be transphobic (or perhaps homophobic).

However (and this is a big however!), most trans people don't pass and a surprisingly huge proportion of trans people haven't had surgery and don't want to have surgery. In this case, a big hairy bloke with a penis telling a lesbian that she's a bigot for not wanting to have sex with him is sooooooo unacceptable and unfortunately that seems to be happening a lot. Louise Pennington wrote a good piece on this...
elegantgatheringofwhitesnows.com/?p=2270

Because when I say "I'm straight" what I really mean is not "I'm attracted to male gender identities" (if that was true, I'd be attracted to all men), but "the small subset of the population that I'm attracted to have thus far exclusively had male bodies (although it's perfectly possible that I might someday be attracted to someone with a female body, if the right one came along!)"

Does that make sense? Not sure if I've explained myself clearly!

Even asking the question is transphobic because anyone who says that they are a woman is a woman and so should have access to whatever womens' spaces they desire even if they are a convicted rapist who hasn't bothered to shave let alone put a dress on.

Thank you

When mil said it , she did say it in a general "lesbians don't like trans woman" way, it didn't really occur to me to say "not all lesbians" or that it might depend on the situation

It followed my dad commenting on a friend of his who has transitioned and his wife was told in a jokey way that "I suppose that makes you a lesbian now", hence the "but real lesbian" comment from mil

Interesting from an entitled point of view as well and the valid choices comment...which of course it is

Surely your MIL understands how women's genitals work though, Rufus? Like, it's not just a big cavern to shove things into in order to induce when-harry-met-sally-style noises. All the operations don't give a result quite the same as a woman's genitalia. You could google but it's about as nsfw as googling dragon butter.

But you don't seem dense.

It's all a bit ridiculous and only really gets discussed because men on twitter use it to tell lesbians off for not being inclusive enough.

Thank you riveting that makes perfect sense

After reading your second comment, rufus, I may have got the wrong end of the stick about which of your in-laws was confused about lesbians. Sorry, if so.

super

That what I though re still not being quite the same after the operation, but then as you say I'm much to afraid to google

When I said that some trans women want to keep their penis she did say "well I don't understand that!"

super

Nope, both of them didn't understand why a lesbian might not want to have sex with a trans woman

Well presumably the transwoman's wife was straight before his transition? She would probably have been labelled as transphobic (by transactivists) and abusive if she had decided not to continue their relationship following her husband's transition. Even though it is completely her choice who she wants to have a relationship with, or at least it should be.