Cisgender Lesbians & Trans Women

[kellyandthecat]

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/16/cisgender_lesbians_and_trans_women_how_to_mend_the_rift.html

I am a straight 'cisgender' woman but a friend of mine in America posted this article and I thought it was really interesting to think about 'other' kinds of women. I cant say I know very much about it or feminism with a capital F since I left university but this article definitely makes what it calls TERFS - 'trans-exclusionary radical feminists' look quite bad so I was wondering if anyone on MN had read it and had any thoughts. No one in my house ever wants to have a chat about this stuff

But then I wondered do you get female transvestites? Do women who dress as men as a thing exist? Do they have false beards, shoulder padding etc like male transvestites wear padded bras? Sorry if this is an insensitive question, it's just when I was explaining it I was careful to use the word "person" and then I suddenly wondered well, wait...

I've been to a black tie do in black tie. I don't identify as a transvestite, but I did identify as someone who couldn't be arsed to fork out on a piece of clothing she'd probably only wear once. People kept telling me I looked awesome. I was totally aware that if a man had turned up in a ballgown, he might not even have been let in, let alone had a positive response from everyone, even if he looked totally stunning. It's a lot more acceptable for women to want to dress in men's clothing (because anyone in their right mind would want to be a man), but far less acceptable for men to want to dress in women's clothing. And yet clothes are just fabric stuff you put on top of your skin. It's not actually part of you in any way, and it's just social convention. Men can wear dress-like clothes in some circumstances - vicars' cassocks, sarongs, kilts and so on - just depends on the culture. There must have been some women who dressed as men in the past though, because there's a whole history of sumptuary laws around clothing (which also covered status as well as gender), so clothes clearly are important markers, but fashions change, too.

Um, this is just turning into a stream of consciousness.

Meanwhile, back with what's under your clothes - well, mostly (but not always), I have fancied people who look male to me. Actually, it's not just look - there's smell and so on, too. Had a bit of a weird moment in the petrol shop earlier, as the bloke in front of me in the queue smelled like a guy I was with about 15 years ago. Does the smell of people who've transitioned change? I assume that if you take hormones, it must affect what you smell like. Although laundry powder and soap and aftershave and so on also go to make up how people smell. (I am more sensitive to smell at this point in my cycle, so that might be why I've been noticing it and therefore thinking about it today.)

But anyway - under clothes, attraction is nothing like as simple as whether someone has a penis or vagina, or whether they've had surgery or not. Usually that's the least of it - IME, there has to be a lot of attraction on what you see outside the clothes and experience in the personality before you get to finding out what's under the clothes anyway.

I think possibly it just comes down to consent in the end. Just because I usually fancy male humans of a roughly similar height and build and so on, it doesn't mean I fancy all men like that, nor does it mean I've never fancied anyone who doesn't fit that mould. I can't tell you why some people make me feeling ripping their clothes off when others who seem very similar in many ways just don't have that effect on me. Even if I do fancy the pants off someone, I might still decide not to have sex with them for many reasons. I might decide that even if we've had sex together before, or I hope to have sex with them in the future. And even if I do want to have sex, I might not want to do every act that they do. Plus if I want to have sex, it can only happen if they also want to have sex. If either of us says no, the answer is no, whatever the reasons for it, even if those reasons are transphobic or whatever else.

Some of the transactivists don't seem to get this idea of consent. I think an individual's right to say no overrides any of the politics and philosophy around it. Not that that means we shouldn't discuss the politics and philosophy, but I would prefer it to be discussion rather than dictated dogma.

Apologies, I haven't read the thread yet. But as a newcomer to the trans/feminism debate, there's one thing I can't get my head around:

If gender is a social construct, are trans women saying that they have a deep need to perform femininity? To adopt infantilised, sexualised, submissive and nurturing behaviours that appease the patriarchy?

I just don't see that there is such a thing as a 'male' versus 'female' brain. Just different socialised behaviours. So I really struggle to understand the trans struggle, iyswim.
And I really don't see that society needs more people performing femininity, as it is a hateful thing borne of oppression.

Will go to the top and read the thread now.

(Addendum: of course, whoever wants to perform femininity can knock themselves out. It just then seems odd to demand acceptance within the feminist fold which calls bullshit on patriarchal norms of behaviour.)

Indeed Goats. And hereby lies the schism between feminists and trans activists.
I don't have any problem with people being trans, I respect their right to self identify however they like, and to have whatever surgery they choose to have, on the NHS if they can evidence that their mental health is seriously harmed by not having it, and to dress and perform gender however they like. But I cannot accept the concept of essential male and female brains.

I can accept that people would have preferred to be born into the other sex and might envy having a penis for example (such as the 'studs' in the documentary seemed to) and I can get how you would prefer people to respond to you, socially and sexually, as if you were the other gender, that all makes perfect sense.

The thing I really boggle at is the people who believe that self identity is everything. Such as the "other kin" and people who identify with Japanese culture and state they are a Japanese woman on the inside whilst being a white American man in actuality.

Ah yes, of course. I had heard the expression drag king.

Interesting that you find it empowering, Ehric. I have to say that I do in a way feel similar about male transvestites, or men who dress very "camp" and "pretty". I think it's brilliant if a man wants to go and be pretty, wear a dress, or whatever other "female stereotype" they want. As you said, it's great - opening up those barriers and stuff. More power to anybody who wants to do that!

It's so hard to understand what is right. On the one hand, I don't want to deny people's feelings. I haven't experienced it myself and if somebody feels so strongly that they are actually suicidal over it, or willing to go through extensive and painful hormone and surgical treatments, I just feel I can't really argue with that. I haven't been there and I don't know what it's like. One of my strongest principles is NOT denying people's feelings

But. Is part of the problem not our sexist society, that tells us it's wrong for a man to want to be pretty or wear clothes which are flowing, or figure-enhancing, or skimpy? Or for a woman to want to drink strong beer, take part in a farting competition or be a construction worker? This is why I find it quite distressing to hear about very young children being "accepted" as trans. If an adult feels this way, has felt this way for a long time and is understanding of the implications that is one thing - for a child I feel like more emphasis should be made for "Yes of course you can be a dancer and wear pretty clothes and do those things but still be a boy - those things can be a perfectly fine and normal part of your identity as a boy. You don't need to be a girl to do or feel those things." It seems to me almost like parents get all excited at this chance to fall over themselves in order to be super super liberal and accepting - which is great, seriously, accepting your child as who they are even when they are not who you expected is a fucking fantastic thing to do, but some kids say they are a dog for weeks at a time and insist they are called Rover. You don't use that as evidence that they are really a dog trapped in a person's body, buy them a kennel and start buying dog food and contact a vet in order to start hormone treatment. For me it would be so important to impress on my child - yes, whichever direction you take your life in, I will always support you and be there for you looking at all options, but (firstly I don't want to let you make such a drastic choice/change until adulthood, but secondly) also that your gender or sex should never dictate what activities you think you are allowed or supposed to do. That even people who conform to their "native" gender stereotypes have problems and that the best thing you can do is be yourself and just basically fuck all of the prejudice.

And something I wondered recently - can somebody not enjoy both nail art and messing around on engines? Can somebody be a tough sports nut but also emotionally soft or sensitive and caring for others? How about enjoying both science and celebrity gossip? Video games and fashion? Why are we (seemingly) so obsessed with "gender stereotypes" and picking one or the other? Small kids have got this down pat - dressing up as a fairy one minute, rolling in mud the next, taking apart something small and intricate or mechanical to see how it works, threading beads onto a shoelace to make jewellery or just for fun. They don't care which is which, and flit between allotted "masculine" or "feminine" activities and behaviours all the time, until they get old enough that they realise they are supposed to choose a place on the masculine/feminine "scale".

I wondered a while ago about culture and whether there is a parallel. But then I thought - well, it's been the way for a long time that if you spend a lot of time in a culture, identify with it, live it, we even have a word- naturalise - you can legitimately and legally become that nationality. I don't know about other kin though. Is that something different? Again I don't really understand why if somebody born American identifies with being Japanese they can't adopt various elements of Japanese culture, or, if they really want to, go and live in Japan, adopt the lifestyle and eventually legally become Japanese? I mean you wouldn't carry on living an American lifestyle in America and just randomly call yourself Japanese? Would you?? That just seems so strange and like not really understanding what citizenship is. It does almost feel like a parallel.

Yes, I've noticed before that some of the trans-gender people talk about knowing they identified with the opposite gender because in childhood, e.g. the little boys really wanted to dress up in pink, have hairbands in, and play with dolls. If those were recognised as not specifically female behaviours, if little boys were normally allowed to dress in pink and have hairbands in (my little boy does some times if he wants) and play with dolls, would they have grown up to think "oh well I must be a girl in a boy's body then".

It is a very difficult discussion to have when, as Ehric says, it causes such huge and very real trauma for people, but it is interesting to me.

I might be way, way out there, but I wondered if I am the only person who feels like, I dunno, if I had been born exactly the same as I am now but in a male body I wouldn't have any problem dressing or behaving male? Even with all my female socialization, and the fact that I present in a very, I dunno, feminine way with the hair and shoes and nails and makeup and all of that, I feel I could leave it all behind without any real distress.

To all the world, I look as a woman should look. I wear dresses almost every day, mainly because they are easy but also because they please me aesthetically. I spend time and money on my hair and nails. I shave my legs and I'm quite conscious of my weight.

In part, I do these things because they bring me some power and privilege. Because of my presentation, men do listen carefully when I speak about everyday sexism, women's need for safe spaces, the reasons porn is unacceptable, etc.

It's all quite depressing, really. In a world absent of rape, forced marriage, unequal pay, and myriad other bio sex-based injustices, I'd be quite happy with gender theory. But those things exist. So maybe I am acting like a handmaiden.

But, anyway, my question once again was whether anyone else would be just as happy presenting as a man if your biology and society were to dictate that as the easiest path?

Thanks Bertie for nailing it with
"Yes of course you can be a dancer and wear pretty clothes and do those things but still be a boy - those things can be a perfectly fine and normal part of your identity as a boy. You don't need to be a girl to do or feel those things."
(I have a 3yo.)

I feel there's a deep current of hatred towards "cis" lesbians in the trans activist community because they think they have failed at being women.

Think about it, trans activists are deeply committed to the idea of a male and female brain and the notion that having a female brain means you act in a certain way through nature not nurture and socialisation. Thus when they see women reject these conditioned behaviours and choose to be "butch" they are choosing to distance themselves from the activities that define transactivists as transwomen which clearly rankles.

I've personally had a transwoman tell me that she made a better woman than I was. She wasn't impressed when I told her that being a woman was something I was, not a list of tickboxes to achieve.

Badonna I know what you mean. I just don't get any need to feel "feminine". I don't really know what that would be like. In rl I've a fairly gentle persona and look (I aim to pass in a crowd tbh.) so I don't jar with societal norms and people seem a bit surprised if I say I'm a feminist.

Yes. Agreed here too. I usually wear clothes which are comfortable rather than fashionable, although I tend to wear women's clothes, even though I find men's clothes more comfortable, (with the exception of non-skinny jeans which fit, and underwear,) I often wear DH's hoodies or t-shirts. I don't wear make up. If I was a man I'd probably grow a beard, out of laziness, and my hair would be similar to how it is now, which is short when I can be arsed to get it cut and about chin length when I can't. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to be masculine, I don't try to be feminine now.

Thinking about it, DH doesn't dress or present as particularly "masculine" but he does shave, keeps his hair short - he would hate to have it long - and wears men's clothes always, which tend to be dark, plain colours, although that is probably just because women's clothes tend to look "obviously for women" whereas men's clothes look more unisex, especially t shirts. (If I was a man I would be way hotter than DH )

It would be interesting to ask this the other way around.

I missed this out of my post because I was trying to re-write it and talk to DS at the same time, but I meant to add to the "you can do that and still be a boy" thing an acknowledgement that a lot of people won't agree, but that it was still true that he can dress/behave however he likes as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, and even whether it hurts anybody or not, it doesn't invalidate his gender.

(And vice versa for a girl.)

OneFlew I've seen that too.

There is also the very male understanding of female sexuality involved. People who say if you use a dildo, you shouldn't object to "female penis" etc. It assumes women are passive recipients of sex. The lesbian porn performer who is still getting hassled to have sex with transwomen explained it quite clearly when she said she didn't want to participate in an orgasm involving penis. It seems a fairly straightforward explanation of the nitty gritty of being a lesbian but this makes her a horrible transphobe, apparently.

Look at this guy who claims to be a woman: (be careful, he has pictures of his penis on his twitter feed)

twitter.com/LewdlyCordy/media

This is moving out of the tiny minority area now though. This week Owen Jones has said it will become unacceptable to say "transwomen are not biologically female" and that TV doctor Christian guy is trying to tell his followers we are all on a sex spectrum and penis is not male. That's pretty mainstream.

I think the anger at lesbians is because many people, especially in "progressive" quarters, are willing to indulge people's self-proclaimed gender identity, largely because they are unaffected by it, for the most part. (And male journalists discussion this on tweeter, largely seem to think it doesn't matter very much.) But when it comes down to it, gay or straight people are unlikely to sleep with a transperson, and are less likely to sleep with a transperson who has not had any surgery or treatments and still looks like their biological sex. Presumably people who are bisexual would be more likely to sleep with a transperson. However, transwomen (not transmen it seems) are focussed on lesbians because it exposes the truth that lesbians don't see transwomen as women. I wonder also if the validation that comes from lesbians is the ultimate goal and a partner who is bi does not provide that same validation.

There is such incongruity between the lesbian community and the way many transwomen present that it's not hard to see why there is an issue, although it's hard to talk about it without seeming rude. It's very important though because lesbian identity seems to be under attack with this way of thinking. Women's sexual self-determination has to be at the heart of women's rights, otherwise why are we even bothering?

Dr Christian appears utterly vile from his twitter behaviour. He incited a pile-on towards a friend when she pointed out the hypocrisy of condemning FGM but having a show that more or less advocates it for teenage girls who are made to feel they have abnormal labia. (as though there is a normal for labia).

'Women's sexual self-determination has to be at the heart of women's rights, otherwise why are we even bothering?'
Absolutely.

I agree Super. He always seemed like a mild irritant on television (although I didn't see the programmes about labia) now he seems like an out and out arse. I bet he wouldn't have sex with a transman with breasts and a vagina. But gay male (and for that matter straight male) sexuality is not under scrutiny. Interestingly, straight women are not under scrutiny for not accepting transmen as sexual partners. Funny that

Dr Chistian is a cockwomble.

DR Christian has done other things, I can't remember exactly what now but I've definitely got the impression he's not a nice bloke.

Ah screw it if transactivists require such a dramatic re-definition of woman in order to include trans individuals, surely that in itself shoots their whole position in the foot? As they are not currently women as the term has been traditionally understood.

I am perfectly happy to call someone she/her, support their right to go about their lawful business free from fear of violence, hunger and to practise their own religion and beliefs, BUT the moment someone's beliefs require us to reorder the whole of society at the expense of other people's freedoms they can feck the hell off.

I feel much the same about groups wanting to implement sharia law in the UK, I've got no beef with practicising Muslims, but the moment the rest of us have to curtail our lives in accordance to other people's beliefs I'm afraid I've reached the end of my goodwill and tolerance.

Surely this is much the same here? Being tolerant is one thing, but tolerance only goes so far until one starts becoming a doormat. Trans people's self perception and beliefs ARE important, but then again so are women's. I don't get why one should trump the other.

Finally I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this horrendous violence and murder perpetrated against trans people is committed by men. Bring up the violence by all means, but mentioning it in the same breath as lesbians is kind of like Palestine bringing up Military strikes against them, but not mentioning Israel at all, but instead going off on one at Outer Mongolia. I mean how on earth does that work?

Nor do straight men appear to be under scrutiny for not wanting to sleep with any random transwoman who might fancy it. Which should also be called out as transphobia too, by their logic?

Sorry Flora, you have already made that point!

As a gay woman I have been subjected to the viewpoint that I must be transphobic not to want to sleep with a transwoman. It's simple - I am attracted to biological women, with biological breasts, vaginas, etc. Transwomen seeking lesbians will then try to counter with the argument that attraction is so much more than body parts or genitalia. Umm, no it isn't. That's pretty much why I'm a lesbian.

When I ask why transwomen don't just date other transwomen - you know, seeing as they're all women - I get a lot of guff about triggers or not wanting to be reminded about their male selves. Yet I am supposed to put aside my instinctive revulsion and sleep with transwomen to validate them as women and as lesbians. That will never happen.

For all the talk of "feminine" penises, I have yet to hear a single gay transman claim that they have a "masculine vagina" or try to coerce gay men into sleeping with them. Because they know it would be futile, and because men are not obligated to soothe their feelings. Yet we women, and lesbians, are seen as easy targets by the militant transactivists - easier to bully and easier to guilt-trip because we are women.

Transwomen do not get to redefine the parameters of being a woman.

I have a trans friend who has accused me (a man) of transphobia for not entertaining the idea of sleeping with trans women. So it does happen, my response was to say how fucking dare they accused me of that as I have listened to him/her (there is a lot of switching back and forth in their case) for literally hours upon hours on end with all the emotional fuckuppery this leaves them dealing with. Gently saying I'll support them whatever their choice ultimately is, and they are still a friend no matter.

Accusing people of transphobia for not wanting to fuck a set of genitals they are not attracted to is dickishness in the highest degree.