Feminist Pub 17: The Bluestocking frolics in the fells and fens of feminism

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

This is the 17th incarnation of the Feminist Pub!

Here be goats, cannons and chat on feminism and related themes. Also snacks. And booze, copious booze.

Welcome!

I have nothing useful for you dragonlette, but I was just thinking doesn't "career men" sound completely weird. We would never use that as a phrase.

Thanks, that's really interesting. It's definitely a tangent to the discussion we're having, but it does tally with my experience. I had dd1 at 20 and am financially miles behind my peers who waited til later. While they were living in shared flats, saving for their house deposits I was providing for myself and dd1 and paying for childcare. Plus I couldn't go for promotions as easily because I had a lot less time than them, due to having a small child at home.

Yes petula it does sound weird, I did point this out to dp who thinks I'm over sensitive, it's just a descriptive phrase Its a shame the conversation took this turn, I had been feeling pretty good earlier and possibly a little frisky, now he's rolled his eyes at me and dismissed me as over sensitive I'm decidedly NOT frisky any more.

I had DD at 28 and DS at 30. I retrained when they were small. I think I'm doing OK career wise. Although I clearly took the middle way (not particularly young or old when I had the kids).

I'm trying to work out if I know any career women who've ended up in the situation you mentioned. I feel like I should, but can't obviously think of any (although I have plenty of friends who have had children fairly late compared to me - I'm 39 and lots if my friend have had children in the last couple of years).

This is a bit closer to the question.

I think "career woman" as a phrase definitely fails the "would you say that to a man" sexism test.

DH has just arrived home and reminded me that we're going out this evening. The parents of one of DS's friends have invited us round for dinner. I'd much rather mooch around at home than spend the evening chatting to people I hardly know.

I think I have some links to articles on that somewhere, Dragonlette. Will have a hunt later. (Have been ailing the last couple of days, and not doing much screen time or much anything, to be honest.) I have a friend who can rant on at length about Peter Pan men who just don't make up their minds till it's too late for the women they're with. And I can get a bit pissed off about people going on about choices. I've never really had a choice, I've never been with a man who's wanted to have children with me, and mostly I've never been with anyone at all, and I haven't even got a decent career instead, just trapped where there's no hope of progression. Just feel like I'm crap at all parts of life. (Am feeling a bit of a failure currently.)

I always say no to Friday night outings. All I want to do is sit on the couch. Perhaps you feel a nasty cold coming on and you don't want them to catch it?

Sorry you feel shit, Ebear. You always come across as fab on here x

EBear, I sincerely doubt you are crap at all parts of life, I've never met anybody who is, I always like the person you sound like on here. I'm sorry you feel poorly, I hope you feel better soon.

It annoys me too when people talk about choice with regards to women leaving it too late to have children. I have loads of friends who are in their mid-thirties and have been actively trying to get to a point where they can have children, but have been unsuccessful in that. They all seem to have filled that gap in their lives with something else, exercise, study, career, etc, and to anyone who looks at them without the "insider knowledge" that I have as their friend they would seem to have "chosen" not to have children in order to pursue their other interests, but it's been the other way around, they have pursued their other interests because they aren't getting anywhere with having children. I have other friends who have made a conscious decision not to have children because they want to concentrate on their career, which I respect, but they're in the minority amongst the women I know (I don't know all women though, which was why I asked for stats)

EBear
I agree with Knickerful, you come across as great on here.

Oh ebear. [Sad]

I have met you both here, and irl. You are great in both omvho.

(i am normally normastanley etc)

Ebearhug I'm so sorry you're feeling low . You never fail to provide thought-provoking and enjoyable posts on here, and come across as very kind, interesting, compassionate and accomplished

What day is it today? Friday. Yes, Friday. Two days past Wednesday. Gah!!

I'm with everyone else, EBear. I think it's so unfair that we're sold the idea that in order for our lives to be "successful", we need to have achieved certain things in terms of finding a life-mate, reproducing and having a meaningful career, whatever that means. Very little else seems to count as significant when taking stock of other's lives. There's so much more that should "count" - kindness, travel, laughter, hard work in any field for any rate of pay, determination, curiosity, adventure.

There are countless people who have partners, kids, careers, ie are "successful" by the weird standard that gets used... but who have never lived life, who just plod from one end of their lives to the other without ever lifting their gaze from their own feet. Such a waste.

Now you, on the other hand, Bearhug, you think, you question, you push to make change happen. You're awesome. Never forget that.

In other news, I have invited a friend of mine who lives over the pond to stop in for a pint in our lovely pub. I think she'd fit in really well here. I hope she takes me up on my invitation.

Ebear

I was also in that boat where people said "oh, she's too busy having a career" or "oh, don't leave it too late". Massively unhelpful when there are no available partners of any kind (at least, that aren't "frightened" by "pushy women") let alone those wanting to have children.

Happily in my mid 30s I met DH though there was a lot of sadness after that before having our DCs. We had several miscarriages and I could feel (and indeed hear) the "well, if you hadn't left it so late" (as it turned out, it was unlikely to be for age related reasons so ya boo sucks).

if you are trying to have kids but cant people offer up hobbies and/or a career as if the two are somehow related. Because, yes, knitting a really nice scarf will feel just the same as having a child!

I think very few people get confused and accidentally fill out a job application when they meant to give birth.

Thank you all! I'm sure I'll be fine once I've had more sleep, and can get up without feeling dizzy (which has been getting better this afternoon.)

And on that note, I must go to bed.

I'm sorry you're feeling rotten, EBear. I too want to chime in saying you're lovely.

I do think the guilt about 'leaving it late' makes it all so much worse than it needs to be. It's horrible. And women (unlike men) never really get to make a decision about having children in any remotely objective way.

I agree, drspouse.

I agree Kickass, people can generally tell the difference between jobs and children. The ex-partner of one of my friends offered her a "compromise" about having children in that he would agree to have a couple of dogs. Surprisingly, she didn't think the 2 were comparable and she decided she'd rather take her chances being single again. She's still single and still trying to find a man to have children with, and at 38 she is getting desperate now, but isn't in a position to be able to afford to do it by herself. According to other people she's a "career woman" too, and very few people can understand why she left him because he's such a catch.

Goodnight EBear - I hope you feel better in the morning

My evening out wasn't as traumatic as I feared. However, I'm now very tired, and likely to feel hungover tomorrow as I've been drinking white wine.