Feminist Pub 17: The Bluestocking frolics in the fells and fens of feminism

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

This is the 17th incarnation of the Feminist Pub!

Here be goats, cannons and chat on feminism and related themes. Also snacks. And booze, copious booze.

Welcome!

Oh, yes, absolutely agree to saying 'this hurts my head'. It hurts mine too.

Fruity and Belgian and hurt-head-soothing beer coming up. Hey, it's almost sunday lunch time, it's legit. Ish.

isn't the point who gets to set up group A and define it?

I'm going to have to ponder on that one. If group A were a new thing people were considering setting up then there could be a discussion about its characteristics, but it's been set up and defined for millennia already. I have trouble with the idea that it can be arbitrarily redefined, because the original concept is still going to exist, if that makes sense. I'll spare you all my longwinded and rambling attempts to sort it through in my head (at least on this thread). But thank you Jeanne for giving me a new angle to think about.

It hurts my head too. It also make me feel very resentful for some reason.

But I agree that who gets to define things is the key.

In my job we do a lot of definition and a lot of what-exactly-do-you-mean-by-that. Though in RL I've got into trouble for wanting definitions and wanting to know exactly what is meant by everything ...

A drink is in order. :)

I think the point of Group B is that they've been through a lot of trauma and want to define themselves as part of Group A. The point of Group A is that they have also suffered and don't want any new groups coming along and telling them what their group is.

Each side has a valid point, but historically there has been so much animosity and anger that there is little hope for reconciliation atm. Which is fairly typical of most conflicts.

I feel that Venn diagrams would help this discussion, although a pint with Sunday lunch seems a better solution right now. Can the pub serve a good roast with Yorkshire puddings and lashings of gravy? Mmmm.

That's a maybe on the roast, depends if anyone can catch the goat.

I've now reached the point where I have so many links open that I can't remember where they were all posted and which led to which. I fear it may be time to throw my hands up in despair and head to the actual pub.

And what if Group B mostly retain the ability to return to their original group if they want. Doesn't that give them a privilege that Group A never have ? There's quite a bit of discussion about this amongst mtf who transition back.

Blistory I don't suppose you've any links to where this is discussed? I'd be interested to read others' perspectives on it.

I followed it from snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com. Can't do the link sorry. In an earlier blog he discusses it and links to some blogs by retransitioning mtfs which are very emotive but give another perspective entirely and their voice just isn't heard.

Will look up the proper links when back on PC.

I've just read the past couple of pages of the Pub and now my head hurts. I'm not sure I have an informed opinion, so I'm going to stay out of the debate. I'd quite like a drink, but as I'm currently responsible for 5 children (rather than the usual 2) I think I'd better stick to

I think that group A and group B have different challenges, different experiences of discrimination, different challenges... Conflating both under the same label by definitional dancing muddies the water I think and stops the problems of both from being effectively discussed.

Anyway, it's a reductionist argument that excludes some fairly important topics -
"I'm a woman"
"Yes but not in the same way I am"
"Don't exclude me"

"that's not relevant to me, let's talk about something else"

sigh.

Maybe I should have

Hello all, I'm a long time lurker, been here many years under various names etc etc. So wandering in for a pint this evening, finally!
Lordy - the trans stuff. Most trans people trying to live life peacefully but the vocal activists trying to define womanhood!? No thanks.
I came on to moan about some non-challenging media 'feminism', but kinda feel like I'd just be whinging about other women, so am currently refraining.
I spend most of my time quietly seething at the injustice of it all. I'm tired.
Chin chin all.

Hi smartleatherbag - welcome to the pub.

I've now got 0 kids in the house, so I think it might be time for .

Oh, and I've just booked a weeks holiday for April, so feeling very at the moment.

Yay for holiday booking! I've been trying to find something toddler friendly that also involves warmth, good food, perhaps the option to bob about in the sea/ocean and the avoidance of school holidays. A challenge.

We're going here from 11-18 April (most people are back at school, but we get 3 weeks for Easter):
tuiuk.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g635615-d506721-Reviews-Atlantica_Club_Aegean_Blue-Kolimbia_Rhodes_Dodecanese.html
(I booked all inclusive with Thomson).

Oubliette That looks good!

We should probably think about Easter holiday too...

Greece is a front runner for us too. That looks very relaxing!

Can I post here to rant? A poster that was vile to me and a few other posters is back being horrendously offensive on a different topic. This time it's victim blaming instead of anti abortion.

Let's hunt her down for sport...

And I am extremely angry about everything because I'm stupidly watching Meet the Ukippers. Bastards, bastards, bastards.

There's some really horrible anti women stuff on MN this weekend. It's disheartening when it gains momentum but at least it's getting challenged.

puffins it's the Karen Danczuk thread if you have the stomach for it. I've had to bow out because of that poster making me irrationally angry.

blistory I agree it's been awful here this weekend.

That thread only had half a dozen posts on it when I looked earlier. It wasn't apparent what it was about. May I ask for a very short overview so I can decide whether to look again? Don't want any unexpected attacks of rage when I'm a bit tiddled.

Stormy, it's about rape myths and why we believe you is apparently an unfair campaign.

The Handmaidens appear to have taken over the asylum this weekend.