Feminist Pub 17: The Bluestocking frolics in the fells and fens of feminism

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

This is the 17th incarnation of the Feminist Pub!

Here be goats, cannons and chat on feminism and related themes. Also snacks. And booze, copious booze.

Welcome!

We're at A&E now. She didn't even get up til after 10, so my plan of coming early didn't happen. We're in the children's section which seems weird seeing as she's so much bigger than the toddlers who are the other patients (she's 15) Everyone is rather impressed by the giant black toe she's showing them. She's had an xray and we're just waiting for them to drill a hole in her toenail There was a suggestion that dropping the other plates on it would burst it.

ooh that toenail hole thing makes me feel funny

i'm generally pretty immune to squeamish stuff, but when my friend's toenail came off when she tripped on a rock and i had to help her bandage it all back together so we could get her to a hospital i came pretty close to fainting

How it works :o I wasn't trying to discriminate, so apols if I did. I have noticed, as per that cartoon, that women in male dominated sectors absolutely have to get everything right otherwise all women get damned for their inability so they cross every i and dot every t whereas many men will happily cut corners and still get it right.

Eeek at hole in toenail.

Two Have seen that comic before. Bit much, isn't it?

All done now. In and out in less than 2 hours, better than I expected. 2 holes drilled in her toenail, lots of "yak" came out and she now has a bandage the size of a house on her toe. I don't think she'll be wearing normal shoes for a while, sandals in winter, what fun.

A friend of mine had the hole drilled through a nail thing done. Apparently a stream of blood shot up about 4 or 5 feet. She said it was ace.

Reading this may not be making Hoppy feel better.

Sorry Hoppy, you probably don't want to be reading all about toes when you're hungover. Did you enjoy yourself last night?

How is the hangover Hoppy? I'd consider doing the run anyway. In my experience, exercising through a hangover makes it go away more quickly (because you naturally want fluid and sugar after exercise I suppose). Although if you have the same weather we are experiencing (horizontal hail) then I'd definitely stay at home and hibernate

Nothing broken then Dragonlette? I'm hope her toe heals quickly - sandals in winter doesn't sound fun.

This made me smile. DD posted today to entertain me.
www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1636923793115163

doctor - fair enough. I was probably reading it wrongly.

May I moan? In a really minor way?

I am not catching a great deal of flack about signing the Observer letter (largely because I'm nobody but possibly also because I think my ideological position is pretty un-threatening too). But someone has just had a go at me over whether sexuality and gender are innate. I'm perfectly willing to chat about whether they are or not, and I do reckon there's a spectrum, with some people being very sure they are one thing or the other, and more of us in the middle who're mostly shaped by nurture. But it seems even saying that is unacceptable.

And (I am being petty and gossipy), the ticking off came from someone who said they have a gay family member and therefore the debate is personal for them. Cos it couldn't possibly be personal for me, ohno.

Sorry, I know that was all a bit rambly and self-involved. Just picture me as the over-talkative woman at the bar with a half-drunk martini (instead of the coffee I've actually got in real life).

Jeanne by all means moan It seems MN is one of the few if not the only place online where we can - so far - debate these things without being shouted down or labelled TERF or whatever.

I've found the various gender/trans threads fascinating and helpful. Of course it's personal - for all of us.

I'm on a large red, with lots of salt and pepper posh crisps. I have been supporting the patriarchy all day and now it's time to have a rest. DH gets to support me tomorrow by looking after our dcs while I work

TBH, I try to stay off threads about trans issues, because I think they get hurtful to everyone. But I agree, it's good we can actually talk about it.

Hope you're enjoying the red. What was the patriarchy supporting?

Hmm, can't really go into too much detail, but a bit reluctantly being handmaiden to a traditional country sport (long story) followed by church business - but as our minister is in a same-sex relationship it sort of subverts the patriarchy rather nicely

Just checking in for a large single malt. DCs' joint birthday party tomorrow, 16 children and toddlers coming (I asked everyone thinking some would not be able to come, they all said yes). Have made 16 pirate hats, a massive pirate to pin the eye patch on and a ball pool to walk the plank over. Also made dozens of fairy cakes with pirate flags, lemon and amaretti pots, BBQ chicken wings and cheese palmers. DH is in the kitchen making gourmet sausage rolls and I am putting a few more layers on Pass the Parcel.

Keep that whisky topped up, won't you?

Oh, I feel an arsehole now, she's just been very nice and made peace.

Anyway, thank you.

And freddie, hope the handmaidening bits are few and far between, and the subversion frequent.

elisaveta - mmm, sounds awesome, can I come? I would almost trade toddler-wrangling for that food.

This is true, and I've made one too.

I've spent this weekend reading a lot of threads and articles about transactivism etc. It's not actually something I've paid much attention because I'm cis-gender. Now, I've come away from the whole thing feeling genuinely upset that there's people out there who think I'm a bigot because I'm more interested in feminsm than trans issues.

We all make arseholes of ourselves sometimes

I don’t; I'm perfect.

I was walking back to Waterloo this evening, round the back of the National Theatre. A bloke, who was not a native English speaker, but beyond that, not sure where from (which is relevant, as it may be a cultural thing,) was going in the opposite direction. As he approached, he started to say, "I like your..." pause and looked me up and down, "...jeans. Great, beautiful." (They are, they're bright red.) I half muttered, "Er, thanks." But it was like he had to comment on a single woman, (he ignored the middle-aged couple a few steps behind me,) and then looked a bit closer to find something he did actually appreciate. Though I may just be being paranoid.

Unlike many/most women, I hardly ever get public comments of any sort, never have, just invisible, so I've never really learnt to respond. My main feeling after this was mostly confusion about what had actually happened. And maybe he hesitated because he was trying to remember the word for jeans/jins.

Then I wondered about a couple of small blue mosaic tiles instead. They are with swallows on, which are at the back of what I think was the Hayward.

I've come away from the whole thing feeling genuinely upset that there's people out there who think I'm a bigot because I'm more interested in feminsm than trans issues.

I'm exactly the same. It's why I stay away from trans discussions.

Until I start reading things where people get all "oh but mtf trans are women so you have to include them in your feminism" (when I start getting confused and upset because I don't think I'm a bigot and I wasn't aware I was doing anything wrong) I'm usually relatively comfortable with my level of interest in trans issues (sympathetic but not actively thinking about it) for the most part since (a) I'm not trans, (b) no one I know is trans, (c) a relatively small percentage of the world's population is trans, vs the percentage that is born with a womb, (d) I don't feel any guilt about not being massively involved in black issues, or the struggles of indigenous Central Americans, or any other minority group that I have sympathy for but not a lot in common with so I don't see why not actively waving the flag for trans issues makes me a bad person.

I don't know. It just seems to be a very nasty and aggressive debate for the most part, the trans vs feminists one. I don't see why. It's two related but different debates about rights, and one of those does actually involve being born with a womb and fanjo.

Perhaps there needs to be a new acronym - BFETA (biologically female exclusionist trans activist), because surely it's just as exclusionist to refuse to accept a definition of biologically female as a relevant concept in any debate about women's rights (not to mention somewhat conveniently blinkered)?

Sigh.

I get sucked into reading them because they hurt my head. It goes:

Group A: We are group A, and our defining characteristics are XYZ
Group B: We'd like to be considered part of group A
Group A: Okay. Do you have the XYZ characteristics that are a necessary prerequisite for group A membership?
Group B: No. But we have 123 characteristics
Group A: Yeah... we don't. 123 characteristics aren't relevant to membership of group A
Group B: But we're part of group A so 123 characteristics must be sufficient to grant us membership
Group A: No, really, 123 isn't relevant. Most of us don't actually have 123. We have XYZ, which is why we're in group A. Group A is only for people with XYZ
Group B: But we're in group A and we don't have XYZ so XYZ can't be a necessary condition!

Either I am really stupid, or there's a logic fail in there. I keep reading because I'm worried the former may be true and I have a feeling I may be missing something obvious that would make it all make sense.

To be fair, I don't get that, stormy, because isn't the point who gets to set up group A and define it?

But ... childishly, having said that, I wonder if we want to debate it on here? Or just have a virtual pint (in virtual world, it can be 8pm on Friday, not Sunday morning, right?).

Yeah fair point Jeanne. It's everywhere else. Cheers

Oh, there are definitely enough threads about it already! But this is the only thread where I feel I can safely say "This hurts my head," without the fear that someone's going to have a go at me for it.

So, I'll have a virtual pint of something fruity and Belgian, please, in the hope that it will distract me.