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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 15:27

Pheadra, I'm curious to know your purpose here on the Feminism boards. You seem to think everything we say is wrong

Is one only allowed to post on here if one agrees with the majority view? Are you aiming for a general nodding in agreement at the wise words ?

I do disagree with quite a lot of what is said on here. A lot of it rather than promoting empowerment seems more designed to encourage an eternal sense of victimhood.

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 15:34

Yy friar - both DH and I take comfort from the fact that either could support the family if the other got sick/redundant etc, though it would mean going back full time for a while.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 15:40

I just feel that this whole gender thing is so utterly ludicrous.

At my work, there are men who say they are super-grateful to be there so they don't have to do the day to day kiddie work, pleased when there is an "away" thing as they will get a break, and there are men who would far far far rather be at home with their families.

I can't really comment on whether it's the same with the women as (like in many workplaces) the number of women who work full-time after children nose-dives. But I would imagine it is.

I just don't see that women "naturally" want to stay at home with the kids and take a back-seat on work and all the rest of it. Some do, some don't. Some hate being at home with the kids and here on MN is one place (anon) where women feel able to say that!

And the idea of the responsibility of being the main earner... Why is this the set-up? In plenty of relationships the woman is equal earning / potential and increasingly of higher actual / potential. So why this default that when babies come everything swings back to a 1950s US sitcom setup?

I just wish that society was less prescriptive and that would free up families to try and work out what will actually work best for them. And then maybe employers would start to become more flexible off the back of what would be lots of people wanting different arrangements to what is "standard".

cailindana · 25/01/2015 15:40

No it's not the case that you have to agree with the majority. But it's usual for feminists to agree on the basics, ie that there is inequality facing women. If you don't believe that to be the case then I'm not sure why you engage with feminism at all.

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 15:42

Oh was looking at the school uniform thing:

"On the primary, yes I would agree. Weird how it happens in school but far less so with normal clothing"

AND I have noticed this in work, massively. Fridays are dress down. Mon-Thurs people's outfits (business casual - business smart) are massively gendered. Fridays nearly everyone is in more or less the same gear - jeans, tshirt, comfy shoes - comfortable stuff.

I find this interesting. People in "normal life" dress much the same and for comfort generally, but as soon as there's a uniform involved or "dressing up" for a posh do or a night out BANG it's gendered a-go-go. Why is that?

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 15:45

Interesting sardine re clothes.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 15:50

It is interesting! And I join in!

I spend Monday - thursday in heels and makeup and spend Friday in a baggy top old jeans and trainers. It's very odd.

It's to do with gendered concepts of "smart" I suppose? And for female with "smart" comes "attractive" and for men I guess "smart" is teamed with "practical".

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 15:51

And the idea of the responsibility of being the main earner... Why is this the set-up? In plenty of relationships the woman is equal earning / potential and increasingly of higher actual / potential. So why this default that when babies come everything swings back to a 1950s US sitcom setup?

Is it the default? I'm in an industry which has a high earning potential for men and women. The default position is women will not give up work.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 15:52

Suffice to say on the whole main earner / natural earthmother / what hobbies do you like / stuff, our family is non traditional and we are happy with that. I am continuously boggled that there is so little variation away from "it's the 1950s" in my community / friendship groups / etc. It can't be the case that we are that weird! Grin

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 15:55

Yes.

In my work there are very few women with children who work full time.
At the school, there are a lot of families who (like us) have two wage-earners and a dad who is very involved BUT the picture is almost invariably that if both parents are not full-time it is the woman who is part time.
The vast vast majority of families where there is SAHP it is the mum.
Amongst my friends (who I was at school with) a similar pattern persists.

Maybe you don't know a very wide circle of people Phaedra? There can be very large differences between different industries and between different parts of the country and so on and so it is a mistake to extrapolate your personal experience of one industry to the rest of the UK population.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 15:56

Sardine I agree it's ludicrous.

I do think, though, that's it's going further than just having 2 working partners in the couple or having 2 people earning similar wage. It's the feeling that you are 'indispensible' for that job.
Most women feel that they are indispensible re the dcs. They would never imagine giving away that responsibility and let someone else taking it all on board.
I think most men feel the same about work/wage.
At the same time, most women don't feel indispensible re work/wage. That's why being a AHM can be a reasonnable option for most women (unless it is really necessary for them to work and then there is no choice. But then again, most women will say that they ressent not having the choice!).
In the same way, most men don't feel indispensible re the dcs and HW so if they aren't there that much, then it's OK too.

I want to believe [Very optimistic emoticon] that this is because we are in some sort of transition phase where men are learning to be feel indispensible for childrearing and running the house. And women are learning to feel indispensible re bringing money in.
What I think would be massively unfair is for women to ask men to be more involved in childrearing whilst not taking on any of the responsibilities re finances and work.

Very interesting re clothes too!

cailindana · 25/01/2015 15:59

Yes it is the default Phaedra. Hence the fact that there are 2.1 million SAHMs and 227,000 SAHDs.

OP posts:
TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:02

Same here Sardine, the setups are very similar. No one bar one mum is working full time. That's 60 families with that set up of either SAHM or working part time.

Because of my job, I work 2 days 'late' (ie 7.00~8.00pm). DH pick up the dcs these two days.
Most women look at me strangely and clearly think I'm an awful mum for doing that. And the 'Is your DH really able to cope, prepare dinner for the dcs and then take them to activities?' look is common too which tends to upset DH who thinks there is no reason why people would think he isn't 'clever' or 'able' enough to do that!

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:03

What industry is it Phaedra if you don't mind me asking where there is constant participation by women throughout?

In my industry it drops off a cliff! And in the area of the country I work TBH I noticed that up to about 35 there are young men and women dotting around everywhere and then above that suddenly women get rather scarce!

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 16:04

It's to do with gendered concepts of "smart" I suppose? And for female with "smart" comes "attractive" and for men I guess "smart" is teamed with "practical"

Some one else on another thread pointed out the falseness of this statement. Smart work clothes for me can be a dress and a pair of ballet flat pumps. Said dress can be wool, silk or cotton adjusted to the seasons. Some of them are even washable. As I actually like wearing dresses my work "uniform" can be and is worn outside work.

For my husband it is a tailored wool suit which can only be dry- cleaned, shirts which need ironing (by him) cuff links and a tie and laced leather shoes in all seasons. He can , if it's really hot swap the wool suit for a linen suit.

Yet his is somehow more "practical" than mine?

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:07

The other pitfall of course, is what I've seen happening in France.
Most women (I think it's 80%) work. And work full time as there are virtually no part time jobs.
So the responsibility for working and bringing a wage is very squarely on the women shoulders too.
But somehow, the responsibility for chilrearing and running the house is still only a woman's responsibility Hmm.

Clearly that's not on either! And the reason according to some of french friends why so many relationship where the woman is a professional collapse. Because they are refusing that their DH is refusing the responsibility for childrearing side of things.

But that means that, at least, women are much more respected professionally than over here. They are expected to be at work and have responsibilities (even though still not as much as men, not the same wage etc...). Whcih is a good first step.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:09

I have never met you or your husband Phaedra Grin so I can't comment on your sartorial stylings!

If you look at people on the red carpet, or in a typical office which demands full business attire, you will see women in figure-enhancing clothes and heels and makeup, and the men will be in suits. The women will have more flesh revealed than the men. Basically the only skin showing on the men will be neck and face. And not even too much neck with a tie on Grin

I pass thousands of people on my commute every day and can cheerfully confirm that women's attire is on average much more revealing, colourful, varied than men's.

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 16:11

Phaedra, I believe that you have the experiences you report. You often come across as if you don't think others have the experiences they report, on grounds yours are different. I'm not sure why that is.

SardineQueen · 25/01/2015 16:12

I love that some people, when it is pointed out that "posh" or "smart" for women means something different to "posh" for men, say "I have quite literally never noticed that". yeah right Grin

See what sort of looks I'd get if I went into work in a male cut suit and tie and men's brogues. Or what sort of a look my male colleagues would get if they went in in a fitted business dress showing a respectable amount of decolletage, teamed with some tasteful jewellery and makeup and then some nice heels Grin

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 16:14

Phaedra, the uniform my DH is using is a pair of black trousers with a polo shirt with the company logo on.
No wool, let alone linen there!
He is in the automotive industry.

When I was working in the same industry, as a woman, I was expected to wear a skirt to go onto the shop floor (!). Strangely enough, I've never followed that (clearly not practical) but, as I was in trouser all the time, it wasn't fully 'smart' clothes.

On that line, I remember when we had some new shirts ordered with the company logo on. Men got a blue shirt in cotton (practical and comfy to wear to go on the factory shop floor). Women got a white nylon shirt, swaety AND transparent (Not comfortable and unsuitable to use on the shop floor). But it was 'nicer looking' Hmm....

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 16:15

Grin I do wear brogues and trousers; not a tie, though!

Doesn't stop me observing the heels and fitted dresses on everyone else!

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 16:20

I was always brought up with the attitude of 'us creambun women dont cook, clean or run around after men'. I feel strongly that I would never do that but I am probably a complete hypocrite as I am happy for dh to do it. He knows thats my opinion thought and it has been from before we married. Expectations are engrained in families either way round.

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 17:02

Me too but from much of what is on the Feminist board one might form the impression such families don't exist.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 25/01/2015 17:07

Again, Phaedra....

No one is saying that your experience isn't real. And yet, you have said repeatedly that other women's experiences aren't real, because they don't match yours. Can you not see the difference?

creambun2014 · 25/01/2015 17:09

I can see how the people that do this probably are constrained by their way of thinking. You do see the whole you aren't a good mother if you have hobbies/a career/a life you must be tied to them for x amount of years from certain women.

I see no difference in men bringing babies up to women doing it. The only thing mrn cant do is breastfeed but the majority of mums dont even breastfeed nowadays. I dont believe there are any other differences and some men are better than women at it and vice versa

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