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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

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PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:00

TheFriar - That may be the case, but Nimpy hasn't expanded her own point about clothes and periods to explain how she thinks it relates to men abdicating responsibility. I totally accept that yoru explanation is how you'd link the two, but tbh I don't recognise her description of British attitudes to dress that much and I am not sure that dress is actually a particularly central element to a 'know your place' culture. I was just interested if she wanted to take the discussion forward. It's an interesting one.

There is an article in the Times today about how more dads drop kids at school than mums. I have some serious issues with it and think it links into this idea of 'performance' parenting, but annoyingly it seems the actual research hasn't been published yet.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:16

I'm seeing that about dresses fir girls. Comments from mums (!!) that her dd isn't girly enough and doesn't want to wear skirts for example.
Or the fact that about 70% of the girls at my dcs school are in dresses or skirts even though it's snowing and they must be freezing.

You will very rarely see a girl always wearing trousers too. Even the most 'tomboys' of the lot.

The thing is, when you are used to a system, it's very hard to see that sort if thing because they are normal. But it will jump out to a foreigner.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:17

Are you talking primary there? I would say 75%of girls at the local secondary wear trousers.

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:19

You'll see in a later post that I got those stats wrong Phaedra. It's 2.1 million SAHMs and 227,000 SAHDs. My point about there being a massive difference was that far more women than men provide fulltime childcare

I realised your stats were wrong . Still not sure what the relevance is.

To me, Britain has this weird time-warp thing where girls are still expected to wear skirts, and people are hush hush and embarrassed about education on sexuality, periods, tampons and contraceptives

I'm over 50 - this is describing a world I live in.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 25/01/2015 13:19

On the primary, yes I would agree. Weird how it happens in school but far less so with normal clothing

MarshaBrady · 25/01/2015 13:20

It's a good point that the stats are not really relevant to the original op about fathers not being involved.

They are two different things.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:21

Yes primary school. Which I think is an essential as this is the time when parents are teaching their dcs what is 'expected'.

I'm finding that often, after a phase of rebellion as teenager/young adults, this is where people settle as an adult/a parent because 'it feels right'.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 13:23

Our secondary is 50/50 with either trousers or very short and tight skirts (ie the image of the 'attractive and feminine sexy outfit).
Nothing on between.

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:28

The thing is though, in some ways, women do perpetuate that situation too

I agree.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 13:36

Phaedra what situation do women perpetuate?
I already said in my previous post but I will say it again that I mentioned those stats because they show that far far more women provide fulltime childcare than men. It is relevant because we are talking, in part, about how much childcare responsibility men take on.

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PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 13:50

By making up lists of things they can't do because somebody tells them they can't ( not sure who, I was born in 1960 and don't recall anyone telling me I couldn't do things just because I'm a women) and then apparently just accepting it.

Your point about which parent works/ which doesn't is completely irrelevant since unless one is very wealthy, money has to be earned. It's also rather offensive to women (and indeed men) who work full time and have children.

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 13:58

Phaedra, if ten times as many women as men are SAHPs, that's gotta be relevant to a discussion about who typically does what in childcare, surely?

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 13:59

I think, if there were some alternate stats saying it was 50:50 for SAHPs, they'd've been brought up as relevant.

CrispyFern · 25/01/2015 14:03

I don't agree at all with your first post.
I don't think "just getting on with things" is something you learn by being a girl. I don't think a boy has unlimited possibilities open to him compared to a girl. Boys have their patriarchy designed boxes too.

Stillwishihadabs · 25/01/2015 14:08

Slightly off topic. But wearing a very short skirt can be more liberating than a longer one especially if it's made of lyrca. I rode my bike with a crossbar in one as a teen. Also you can climb a tree in one much easier than a longer skirt (miss spent youth)

cailindana · 25/01/2015 14:26

Again, Phaedra I am very pleased to hear that you have had such a great experience of equality in your life.
But it is not the case that women "make up lists." It is fact that the equal pay act did not come in until 1970. Up until then, companies could legally pay women significantly less than men. In fact, the equal pay act only brought women's pay up to 90% of men's - it still wasn't actually equal. There is still a significant pay gap, 15% in some industries. Up until the 1960s many jobs were not open to married women - once they married they were fired. Up until 1991 it was legal in England and Wales for a man to rape his wife. It is estimated that even now, around 30,000 women a year lose their jobs due to pregnancy-related discrimination. 85,000 women a year are raped. 6% of rapists are tried, 1% are convicted. Thousands of women experience harassment and assault on a daily basis.
We aren't imagining things or "making up lists."

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ApocalypseThen · 25/01/2015 14:26

I don't think "just getting on with things" is something you learn by being a girl.

It's a bizarre coincidence that women are the default carers at both ends of life then, isn't it? Thinking that girls are trained to understand this as primarily their responsibility so they just get on and do it regardless of what they would personally prefer sounds plausible, but in reality it's just a massive, cross cultural mystery.

PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 14:36

To me, Britain has this weird time-warp thing where girls are still expected to wear skirts, and people are hush hush and embarrassed about education on sexuality, periods, tampons and contraceptives

I'm over 50 - this is not describing a world I live

Omitted "not" from original post. Definitely not my world.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 14:38

Pheadra, I'm curious to know your purpose here on the Feminism boards. You seem to think everything we say is wrong. Are you hoping to convince us we're wrong? Do you believe there is any need for feminism?

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PhaedraIsMyName · 25/01/2015 14:43

Phaedra, if ten times as many women as men are SAHPs, that's gotta be relevant to a discussion about who typically does what in childcare, surely?

No it's completely irrelevant. The stay at home parent presumably sees looking after children as her or his job whilst the other is working in paid employment. After the end of the "working day" it's the responsibility of both.

And you appear to be suggesting that only the stay at home parent is involved in childcare, which is insulting to all working parents.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 15:14

I agree with Crispy. Men are put in boxes too (that's the other side of saying 'women are expected to do all the childcare and HW').

More precisely men are expected to be the bring the money in for the family, to be the main earner.
Now at the time when we had fallen into the trap of following that very patriarcal organisation with DH, DH was very much feeling the weight of being the main earner, to be the one that everyone was relying on to have food on the table. The one who didn't dare looking for another job, even though he hated the boss he was working for at the time, because he was worried to go for a new job and be sacked with no redundancy payment after 3 months (and then scared to struggle to find another job. This was in the middle of the economic crisis).
At that time, I was studying for a career change, started my own business, which took nearly 2 years to take off and never ever felt the pressure to 'bring the money in'. Because this wasn't 'my' role and I could 'fully' rely on DH to do so.

I've seen that recently in an email from my professional body too. The work I'm doing is usually done by people who have retrained as adults. It's also about 80% women. The email was saying 'If you feel under the weather, are taking a new medication and you aren't sure about how you are reacting to it, then you should avoid seeing your clients until you feel better'. Really??? Do you see the professional body of engineers saying that to their members? Of course not. Because that sort of attitude is only possible when that income is seen as 'secondary' and therefore 'spare'.
And tbf, this is exactly what most of the people I trained with were doing. None of them were planning to be the main earner with that job. As one of my collegue put it, 'My wage is to pay for birthdays, Christmas and holidays'.... HmmHmm

In my opinion, I want full equality between men and women. I want the same pay, I want the same opportunities, I want to see the father of my dcs involved in the day to day running of the house and the same bond to develop between my dcs and him than between myself and the dcs. But I also want to have the same responsibilty than my DH to bring money home and be finacially responsible (and why shouldn't I? I am as able as he is to do so!). I want to feel that when it comes to choosing his work, he has as much choice as I have (and I've had much much more opportunity to do what I wanted than he has due to the no financial responsibility). I want to share all responsibilities, not just the ones I've chosen.

YonicScrewdriver · 25/01/2015 15:16

"And you appear to be suggesting that only the stay at home parent is involved in childcare, which is insulting to all working parents."

Ouch.

I implied nothing of the kind - two WOHPs here. That's why I specifically said childcare and not parenting. Of course if there is a SAHP and a WOHP and pre school children, the SAHP does more hours of childcare, just as our nursery did many hours of childcare for us.

cailindana · 25/01/2015 15:18

I agree that men are in boxes, though I would argue their boxes are far more comfortable, at least in the childrearing years.

That said, my DH has said that learning about feminism has been an incredibly freeing process for him. He feels released from expectations and limitations, particularly when it comes to the children. He is a far more engaged and happy parent.

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TheFriar · 25/01/2015 15:19

BTW, my point is that men and women have their opportunities restricted in some ways by the current system.

Women because of the issue of childcare balabla. Men because of their role as the main earner.
Both of these positions then have some knock on effects on the rest. Women are expected to go back to roles with less responsibilties, to not be relied on (children sick etc etc). Whilst putting all the focus on earning for men is then meaning that men aren't as involved in the family life and miss on establishing strong relationship with their dcs etc etc.

Imo both men and wokmen loses out.

TheFriar · 25/01/2015 15:25

I think how comfortable that box is very much depends on how much the man is earning and what they are doing.
Bring a very comfortable wage, a job that you more or less enjoy (maybe they have more chance to enjoy it as they had more choice to start with?) and yes it's probably more 'comfy'.

The wage my DH had, whilst still over the 'average' was just enough to cover our costs. The fear of losing the job, doing more hours (even if you don't want to) because you want that promotion, because you don't want to be the one made redundant, that isn't a comfortable position to be in either.
And when you listen to men talking, you will see that 'you have to work even if you really hate your job because you have to bring an income' is a recurring theme.