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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The optional nature of men's lives

411 replies

cailindana · 24/01/2015 12:35

I was talking about this with DH recently and he agreed with much of what I said.

It strikes me that boys and men have very "optional" lives in comparison to girls and women and that this influences their whole approach to life. What I mean is, girls learn pretty early on that their choices will be restricted, that their options will be limited. From only being allowed to wear skirts and then told they mustn't show their knickers (thus removing the option to be active) to suddenly having to deal with periods and curtailing activities due to that, to then contending with the prospect of unwanted pregnancy and thus having restrictions on sexuality to then being told not to walk certain places not to do certain things for fear of being attacked and ultimately being told you "can't have it all" - ie choose work or children.

IMO, women (in general of course, not all) learn very quickly that there are consequences to things, that you can't always have what you want, that sometimes you just have to get on with it and face the fact that everything isn't perfect. I think that influences their approach to so many things in life from housework, to illness, to childrearing. Men on the other hand, always seem to have options open to them and I think that leads to a certain immaturity, a lack of acceptance that sometimes you can't have what you want. I think it has a bearing on how men approach things like fatherhood and the idea that now you don't have any choice but to knuckle down and accept your life is different - so many men seem to want to "opt out" and carry on as if nothing is different, thus leaving women to, as usual, take the hard road.

While I don't think it's right that women often end up carrying the burden I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have that maturity foisted on you. I think while women do lose out massively in the earlier years, especially when children are young, that maturity and that acceptance stands them in very good stead as they get older and ultimately they reap the rewards. I notice among older friends that women seem to come into their own in their 50s whereas men can't face that their options are now becoming limited and they no longer have the world open to them - hence mid-life crises etc. I think also because men expect options they tend to skirt on the edges of responsibility, never full accepting the hardship of, for example, parenthood, and thus ending up on the fringes as children get older and become true friends and companions. Thus women, who have been the stable guiding force in childhood, mucking in, organising, being the go-to person, reap the rewards of a close relationship with their adult children, whereas men, who focused on work, never really got their hands dirty with parenting, are now coming to retirement and the loss of that source of status but have not really jumped in with both feet in family life and so don't have that either. They are left with very little.

I am not saying the equality that exists is a good thing. What I'm saying I suppose is that while women look on enviously at men continuing their careers and never attending a parents' evening, they might do well to remember that the emotional toil and labour they put into their families is really and truly worth something. Jobs come and go, they give no love or longterm support. But children are for life, and being that person who always knows where the PE kit is is important, is special.

Men are missing out. They just don't realise that until it's too late.

OP posts:
PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 17:58

I didn't say it was 'automatically' a barrier though did I? Nevertheless, it is common.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 18:01

Useful excuse. Very rarely i would say. Most such women are very open about their ambitions.

Out of interest, do you believe women in Britain experience any institutional or structural barriers that are not either of their own making or could not be overcome by just trying harder?

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 18:18

Various men have said to me they wish they could have the set up DH and I do.

Well, you operate under the same employment law as me, dear - put in the request, if that's what you truly want.

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 18:18

I believe women are held back by cultural barriers more than structural ones. Some women aren't constrained by culture in the same way as they dont buy in to the social construct that a woman stays at home, runs the house, cooks and looks after men. I hope one day more women think in this way.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 18:21

In the professions I have experience of I think there is a strong case for arguing that women who don't achieve senior positions are those who are either not interested or don't merit it.

I do think some women use "barriers" as a means of avoiding saying that they really aren't that interested.

In my own field the days of promotions being handed to men just because they are men are long gone. Anyone seeking promotion needs to justify why they should get it.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 18:23

So essentially the answer is no then?

Hard to respond to comments about your industry since I don't know what it is.

Chunderella · 26/01/2015 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:31

Which is your field Phaeadra? It sounds interesting and quite different from mine, there are big differences between industries so it is always good to find out more about ones you are not familiar with!

You say that the default is that women return to work and that there is as much representation of women as men throughout. But then women aren't represented in the same numbers as men at senior levels - or are they? I'd be interested in learning more.

In my industry it is all very good and equal until about mid 30s when the numbers of women fall off a cliff. Full-time women with children are fairly rare. My company is based in Europe and quite "right-on" (well for a traditional industry) and they are actively working to increase diversity at higher level positions, and to my eye it seems to be more than lip-service.

Drops in numbers are due to pat-time and the commute I guess. Women over a certain age are a bit sparse compared to other groups in the location I work.

PhaedraIsMyName · 26/01/2015 18:31

Well, you operate under the same employment law as me, dear - put in the request, if that's what you truly want

Indeed. There's nothing to stop a man asking for part time work and an employer can't dismiss it out of hand. Complaining about it on here won't do any good.

You may argue " cultural norms" are conditioned against this- well if you don't ask those norms are never going to be challenged.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 18:35

I would agree more people should ask. We both did pt for a while. But it remains the case that in many organisations pt employees lose out. Which is a separate but related issue, as per my earlier post.

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:38

Oh I had an interesting experience recently. Been thinking a lot about "boys club" stuff and unconscious bias and that sort of thing. Some colleagues and I had client meetings and to cut a long story short there were meetings with all male clients and meetings with all female clients and I noticed in myself a difference in comfort level, that my colleagues seemed to have different comfort levels, and that the "hello how are you let's bond a bit" conversations were quite different.

I've always been someone who has lots of male friends and doesn't see the whole gender divide thing but as i get older actually I see the divides more. I mean everyone got on well and we had good meetings but it was just interesting you know? Also observing at work meetings where there is 1 man and then 4 women, 1 of whom is big boss, and the man often seems not as relaxed as when there are more men there. And I think, this is how it is for a lot of women in work esp in certain industries and at higher levels a lot isn't it? We're often the sole woman in a roomful of men, which is fine, we're used to it. But, we're the "odd one out". Not that that affects anything, but you know, it's interesting, the dynamic.

Just thinking out loud here really. I want to get on at work at the mo and that combined with being a feminist Grin combined with Diversity talks at work combined with keeping my eyes peeled at work is just very interesting at the moment Smile

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:40

We aren't men who can put in requests for flaexible working though Confused

FWIW my request to go part-time was refused by my employer and so I dropped out of my industry and went and did admin locally for 3 years. Then I realised that was stupid and was lucky enough to get back again. BUT that sort of thing happens a lot, doesn't it.

Women are still heavily discriminated against while pregnant aren't they IIRC.

PenguinsandtheTantrumofDoom · 26/01/2015 18:42

Yes Sardine . It does

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:42

I mean it was stupid for me. Obviously not for everyone who does that! Didn't word that well.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 18:43

I actually think MN is a good place for helpful advice on the nuts and bolts of flexible working requests. I'd send any man or woman wanting to know more to the employment board here...

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:45

There was a suggestion of MN online mentoring IIRC. Or something, a thread. For women to get advice and support around work issues / getting on. It has been shown that men have access to a much better informal support & mentoring network than women in many industries (back to unconscious bias again) and MN is a massive resource with a lot of successful and experienced women across a range of industries. I thought it was a great idea it was mine Wink

Chunderella · 26/01/2015 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cheminotte · 26/01/2015 18:52

After ds was born I suggested to dp he could ask to go part time. He said part-timers got passed over when bonuses and pay rises were being given out.

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 18:53

DH is looking to go part-time. He's not ambitious though.

He can't get it at the moment in his role but they might be changing that (fingers crossed).

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 18:59

I believe the issues of part time working and losing out on bonuses and promotions is the same whether you are a man or a woman. I dont believe it is a sexist issue. I am interested on the culture that makes women give up their careers so men can carry on. Why not the other way round? Either men sah or going part time?

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 19:05

Just hardly any men do it. So at that point it becomes significant at a wider / society level IYSWIM. Because the people missing out on bonuses etc just happen to be women almost all the time etc.

TheFriar · 26/01/2015 19:21

sardine I've noticed that too re men and women behaving differently if there are more men or women on the group.
I've always wondered if this is the consequence of having men and women socialising separately too. If you cant do small talk together in a relaxed atmosphere, hie are you going to do it in a work related environment?
I've also noticed that men together tends to talk about football and politics etc, all of which are subjects that women aren't supposed to like. And women together will talk about children and I don't know fashion or whatever, again subjects deemed to be 'women subjects' but not men.
I've yet to find a type if subject that both men and women are supposed to like, enjoy and be comfortable with.
That, in itself, will make it hard for men and women to work together as 'small talk' is just as important in work settings (at least to set up the tone, create good relationships etc).

That's also why I despair to see boys and girls so separated in their activities at school etc.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/01/2015 19:24

"I've yet to find a type if subject that both men and women are supposed to like, enjoy and be comfortable with. "

The weather!

SardineQueen · 26/01/2015 19:30

I talked about this with DH and I was saying that the thing is that actually I'm not sure the football / fashion thing is to do with what it seems as actually if you get a woman who knows a lot about football and chips in the men often don't really like it. And they don't then admit her into the conversation in the same style. I think it's to do with male bonding / female bonding - why we feel the need to bond with people of our own sex is another question I guess - but it's not just that we have different interests because even if actually you do, it doesn't work, because that's not what the actual point is.

Or something Grin

There was an interesting thread recently about shaking hands - even something as simple as that - is something men do generally and women don't. On that thread lots of women said shaking hands did not feel natural for them. I know it doesn't for me.

creambun2014 · 26/01/2015 19:37

I am happy to shake hands but kissing cheeks or hugging eurgh I cant bare it. Lots of women do that and I find it internally so awkward.