Hello all, really long first post coming up.
I'm a father, and I thought I'd share my experience. I've not read the whole thread, only the first few pages, so excuse me if this is not relevant to the current flow of the thread.
Yops, in the first page, said something that struck a chord with me. I've been reading feminist books and forums for a while, since it's an interest, and am aware of the concept of 'lived experience' and how important it is that men know that they cannot possibly understand fully the 'lived experience/oppression' that women face. Yops asked that vis-à-vis, how can women feel they are able to comment on men's experiences? As such, I hope to share my experience of being a father; my 'lived experience', and hope you'll accept it in the way that you would like yours to be.
I recognise the behaviour in men that the OP talked about. I know men like that, but don’t think I have been like that myself (though I have come close, as I will explain). I think that men are disadvantaged in parenting, oppressed even, in much the same way women are in work. I can’t say whether this is ‘patriarchy’, because my experience of it has been that it is mostly women doing the oppressing. Albeit, unconsciously and without malice.
When I had my first child with my ex wife, I felt from the pregnancy that I was not an equal parent. Back then, there was very little focus on the father when attending medical appointments or ante-natal classes, and when together with my wife, all questions from friends/relatives/health visitors/etc seemed directed at her rather than ‘us’.
My first wife breastfed our son, and cherished the experience. I was happy for her to breastfeed, although I looked forward to him moving onto formula because I wanted to feed him too. A year later, it became clear to me that the decision to continue breastfeeding was equal shares convenience/health benefits for child/that nice feeling the mother got from it. I figured at the time that it was no big deal, I can bond in other ways/etc, and that breastfeeding is a good thing anyway. Later, I resented the mother’s emotional satisfaction having been part of the decision when my wants/desires weren’t even considered.
I was very eager to put the baby to sleep, bathe him, hold him, clean him up, etc... but although both myself and my ex wife were equally inexperienced (first child), it always seemed that she felt she knew how to do these things best and that I needed correcting. I wanted to learn it on my own. I was doing it right anyway. But there was interference from my ex wife at every step that made me feel like I should be the second choice for any caring related task, like a substitute in a football match.
At first, I thought that maybe this was just a personality trait of my wife. But her mother did the same thing when she was around the house. Even my own mother did! As did my wife’s friends, and even one of my own female friends! It was although it was common knowledge that men are useless. I’ve spoke to many father’s about this since, and they experienced the very same things.
Our son fell ill and was admitted to hospital. Both my wife and I were there constantly until he was discharged. A couple of days later, a doctor called to make sure we had received a prescription that he needed to be adjusted. There were a couple of calls related to this. Our house phone was always on speaker phone for some reason (wife’s choice, dunno why), and I can tell you that the way the hospital staff dealt with me was different to how they dealt with my ex wife. With her, the conversation was instant and automatic, with me, there was a pause and hesitation as though to say “Have we got the right number?” or “Oughtn’t I speak to the mother”.
There were other issues that I’ll touch upon when I talk about my current marriage and my daughter, but I’ll add one other thing. When we got divorced, it was pretty amicable but we both wanted full custody of our son. We both worked part time in well paying jobs, and had both been at home for equal amounts of the week prior to the divorce. She got full custody. Why? I don’t know. She’s a good mother, no doubt, but I’m a good father too. In court, it really all seemed to start from the position of “Ok... so the mother’s getting full custody, but let’s hear the father out and decide how much he gets.”. There really wasn’t the sense that the case was starting from a 50/50 balance. Of course, all this was dressed up as ‘We only consider the best interests of the child’. I now see my son once a fortnight ? for the weekend. When I remarried, my ex wife was bitter and made things difficult with that, too.
Anyway. In my current marriage, things were much the same to begin with as my previous marriage. The whole issue of the mother being seen as automatically being best at care, remained. Although we didn’t have the issue with breastfeeding since our daughter was formula fed (wife didn’t want to breastfeed). I must say I cherished feeding my daughter.
There are other things. I am undermined when it comes to discipline, for example. I am undermined when it comes to educational decisions such as what school to choose. It’s all subtle. Much like a mature discussion, but there seems to be an unspoken expectation that mother knows best. I voice my opinion, she voices her, but more than 50% of the time it’s her decision that happens. When the school calls, they ask to speak to Mrs.TSD. When I explain I’m her dad and they can talk to me, they are totally fine, but why the assumption?
I’ve typed loads, so the details are getting more concise. But my point is that in my experience as a father, I have been consistently made to feel that my care is second class to a mother’s care, and that my opinion in decisions relating to my child are second class to the mother’s. Nobody would ever admit this and everyone would agree it’s wrong, but it happens, and it’s a similar sort of unspoken prejudice that makes a man more likely to pass an interview for a highly paid job than a women.
Besides this treatment of fathers by women. There are also societal issues that are at work that make it hard for fathers. For example, when my son was born I was only entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave. I wanted more. I wanted the same as my wife got. I managed to book a few extra weeks on top of the statutory two, but I lost out on the opportunity to be there at home with my newborn as much as my wife was. When my ex wife went back to work, she found it hard emotionally to leave her child at home when she had to work. I didn’t say it, but I thought “I’ve had to do that from almost the beginning!”.
The 2 weeks entitlement that men got was reflective of the attitudes towards fathers in the workplace. When I need to leave early to attend to something child-related, I’m allowed because my employer seeks to comply with equality legislation, but I can tell you it is certainly more frowned upon than when one of the mother’s does the same thing. All unspoken of course.
Anyway, I should relate this to the thread. I think that when you have a situation where fathers are made to feel like they are second class parents by the women around them, where in the workplace it is the expectation that a father just does not have to suddenly leave because their child is ill, and where it seems to be automatically assumed in custody cases that the mother will have primary custody by default... then men develop a kind of learned helplessness. Much as we see some women going along with patriarchal expectations of femininity and the woman’s role for the sake of having an easier life with less hassle, so too we see father’s thinking “If everyone thinks all I’m good for is earning money, then I might as well get on with it”.
It’s a crisis I think, amongst men, as to what their role is in the home. Once, there were clearly defined roles; he earned the money, she raised the children. That’s terrible of course, and I’m happy women now have it better than they did. But now, since women can earn and live independently of men; yet there still seems to be the attitude that they are also still better at being parents. Where does that leave men? For some, it results in disengagement.
I think the solution is for is to move towards a total 50/50 split with maternity/paternity leave, for a start. I know the legislation has now changed so that father’s can have more time off than ever before, but it’s still not equal as it depends on the --permission—compliance of the mother to return to work herself. I think that if we had equal leave, then over time it would go some way to becoming the norm in the workplace for men to be seen as equal parents, and likewise, women as equal workers (many other things need to be done too of course).
Secondly, they need to be putting some kind of safeguards in place to ensure that custody arrangements are more equal. I would generally expect more mothers to be granted primary custody simply because more of them are currently oppressed into a position where they are better able to care for the child (more likely to be working part time, etc). But even so, I get the feeling that the figures are still unequal even when you take this into account, and put it down to it being a cultural idea that women are obviously the ones who are better suited to having primary custody.
Finally, women need to be aware of the effect they have on the father and how what they do might damage or inhibit the engagement of the father with his child. With regards to all aspects of caring for a child, do you patronise him? Do you woman-splain things to him? Do you interfere or take over when it’s not really necessary? Etc.
So that’s my ‘lived experience’. I know a lot of men share it. Go easy on me!