Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

[YonicSleighdriver]

Festive greetings!

This is the 15th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, get some booze and snacks and hang out! Lurkers, newbies and oldbies welcome.

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and we cheer each other up when patriarchy grinds us down...

Last pub drinkie linkie:

Pub 14

being able to get things wrong is a very basic need within education, at all levels. Whether it's a 5 year old learning how to shape letters, or a post-doc trying to solve the mysteries of the universe, without experimentation and getting things wrong, there would be regression not progression. That's why it's so frustrating when the willy waving, look at me I know best and quickest starts. It actually stunts growth.

I think Jeanne's point is that someone whose experience of life is often that they are judged and found lesser (this will apply to many groups, e.g. women, short people, 'foreigners' and many others) then facing a subject where there is often a significant component of right and wrong to the learning is rather off-putting. A subject which more easily leans towards we'll all have a jolly good chat and then agree we're all right can be very safe and comforting by contrast.

Yes, kickass! I introduce a bug in the codebase and give them proof that girls can't code

I am doing Dry January

Watching the awesome Xmas lectures with DS with the fabulous Fran Scott (www.franscott.moonfruit.com)and the brilliant prof Danielle George (who happens to be about 6m PG). They are coding stuff and exploding stuff.

Bechdel test WIN!

Well, I'm halfway through Strong Poison from your link, scone. I am enjoying it, especially the lesbians.

But I don't like the way she calls him 'Peter' from the get-go.

Is it ok Jeanne? I'm always very anxious about TV adaptations of books I love!

I agree. I'm sure in the book she calls him Lord Peter at first, but I haven't read it in a while.

For me, one of the best things about Strong Poison is the dessert omelette. I had never heard of that before, but because I love eggy custardy things, I experimented and its one of my favorite treats.

Yes, I think she does. And it's one of the things Mill Hillyard (?) criticises her for - for calling him by his title in public and by his Christian name in private.

yonic - yes, quite good, though I have quibbles. I might start a thread to talk about it.

And sorry, kickass, I somehow missed your post before, but yes, that's what I meant to say.

I think the question really should be, "How the fuck do some women stick it out and manage to keep going every day?"

Because I haven't worked out what else to do... Actually, there are lots of things I could do (I have degrees in history and computer science, and I think the ability to cross the divide is a positive - but I would say that, wouldn't I... I also think our education system specialises too early, and I still feel bitter about only being able to take 3 subjects at A-level. But anyway...) But also, IT is comparatively well-paid, and to do something else would probably mean a pay-drop, and while I could survive on less, I probably wouldn't choose to. And leaving would make it feel like they've won.

I don't think I'm so weird and unusual that my reasoning will be unique.

or, even better, "Why the fuck aren't we just paying men less and firing some of them?"

Oh yes. I have a list we can start with...

More generally, there are a whole list of things that contribute to it. Girls tend to turn off from maths and computers and sciences in early teen years. There is an image issue, and I do think we need to be doing more PR about the range of jobs available in IT and in sciences - it's not just the geeky IT Crowd look, or just white lab coats and safety glasses. There are lots of roles which mean you do need to talk to real people, and have good communication with them. Most roles, really, though obviously some do have more people contact than others. And then there are cultural issues and the whole death by a thousand cuts things. Some employers are worse than others, and some departments are worse than others, but there's certainly an industry problem.

Why have I never thought of doing a sweet omelette? Especially as it was only earlier this week that I was pointing out to a colleague that things like pancake are neither sweet nor savoury until you serve them with something sweet or savoury, and that is the flexibility and wonder of such a versatile food.

I introduce a bug in the codebase and give them proof that girls can't code

Yes - they have to make about 5 mistakes for every one of mine to get the same sort of ranting.

Yes, it was Miss Hillyard, though that was six years later so a bit more reasonable to have dropped the title!

Ugh, how tedious for you Ebear.

Is Buffy still here?

YY, and the fact she'd not dropped the title in public by then means I can't quite see her doing it in about the second meeting.

Sorry, trivial.

EBear, I agree with you it'd be better if we could be less specialist.

It sounds as if your industry is really getting you down at the moment.

This article has a dessert omelette recipe based on Strong Poison close to the way I make it. I haven't been using the extra egg white, but I think I will the next time.

www.loumag.com/articledisplay.aspx?id=43407740

Mmm, will take a look!

It sounds as if your industry is really getting you down at the moment.

Ach, I think it's more the department than the industry. Also, I'm overtired, having a heavy period, heard today that ex's mother has lung cancer, and stressing about forthcoming certification exam, among other minor niggles. It will pass. I was just advising someone else thread to look at their job in terms of what things are good, what are bad, what they would like more of, what less of - and I thought, I should go through that exercise myself, as it's a few years since I last did...

EBear - ah, sorry to hear that, especially about your ex MIL. That's a good exercise.

scone - I've made souffle (can't do the accent) omlette with jam - I did it in my first year at secondary school, in cookery class. In retrospect, my mum was showing off (we were told to make an omlette and she wasn't impressed given she'd taught me to do that before I can remember).

It's good with nutella in it, if you like that sort of thing.

to do something else would probably mean a pay-drop, and while I could survive on less, I probably wouldn't choose to. And leaving would make it feel like they've won.

You are definitely not alone, those are exactly the same reasons for me. I took time off to do something I love, but the one order of magnitude pay drop was a lot to stomach and doing something you love for a living is not the same as doing it exclusively for love.

I'm sorry to hear about your MIL. I'm going through the same: ex FIL with lung cancer and even though I haven't spoken to my ex for years, it still feels weird.

Why the fuck aren't we just paying men less and firing some of them?

You mean the men that caused the whole financial shitstorm we're still suffering? The men who continue to be rewarded hugely despite being criminally negligent? Sadly it'll never happen, not as long as I've got a hole in my arse. Only those who rip off the rich and the banks will get punished. Why is it that Jamie Dimon is not in chokey but Bernie Madoff is?

I wasn't thinking about them so much as down on the ground - the incompetent men who get bigger bonuses and payrises and promotions while the women don't. In our team meeting yesterday, our manager was going on about annual reviews and payrises and saying we have a culture of paying for performance and I bit my lip, but we don't really. We have a culture of who the manager likes best in most teams I see. Sometimes that is who performs best, but it's not judged objectively enough to be like that consistently. I didn't have the energy to argue about it though.

Sorry to hear that, fib.

EBear - yes, I agree.

(Btw, not relevant to this thread, but because I know there are Sayers fans on here, I did start a thread about the TV versions scone so kindly found for me on youtube, and it's in the Adult Fiction section.)

Yeah, I've been thinking recently that as the pay gap is 9% at the lowest, and over 50% at the highest, then there should be a 'reset' on salaries and all male employees get a 5% salary cut and all female employees a 5% salary raise. I know it will never happen, and that there are a very few individual cases where there isn't a pay gap but otherwise it makes financial and moral sense. Imagine if every five years or so companies had to be checked for pay discrepancy then do a reset like that.