Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

[YonicSleighdriver]

Festive greetings!

This is the 15th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, get some booze and snacks and hang out! Lurkers, newbies and oldbies welcome.

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and we cheer each other up when patriarchy grinds us down...

Last pub drinkie linkie:

Pub 14

Anyone else stalking twitter/sky sports news RE CE and Oldham?

EBear, I see where you're coming from, but I am conflicted. I think it is great for young women (and men) to learn that clothes don't matter, and I agree that in the long run, work experience might be more useful. But, two issues I have are:

1. In my very, very limited experience, there are people who wouldn't take up work experience, either because 'it's not what people like us do' or 'it's too expensive - I have to get there and they're not paying me' or because it seems useless. I think there's an extent to which you need to feel as if you belong before you can take up other opportunities.

2. It is pretty unpleasant it is for young women to be unable to conform to 'required' standards of femininity. It's unpleasant those standards exist, obviously! And it's horrible if you are someone who knows those standards are radically incompatible with who you are. But it's also horrible to be aware that you're 'meant' to do x, y and z and not to be able to, and I think it really isolates young women.

My 'tiniest of the tiny violins' perspective on this is that my mum, bless her, was so anti-femininity she gave me to understand that shaving, heels and deodorant were basically immoral. I had a lovely moment when I was wandering around town shopping for a dress for my leaver's ball and feeling exposed, ugly, unfeminine or all of the above and suddenly figured out I could wear a tux and I wasn't too scared to pull that off, because at 18 I'd just come across a lovely supportive teacher and my lovely first boyfriend and I had some confidence. At 16, I'd just not have gone, and actually, I don't think I went to anything social outside school between the ages of about 13 and 17.

It would absolutely have been better if I'd been all confident, saying fuck you to the patriarchy and going along with whatever I had, but I felt ashamed, and aware that my parents would judge whatever everyone else wouldn't judge, and I just wanted to be invisible. And I am a disgustingly privileged middle-class white person. So, I actually think this is a really good initiative. It's taking some of the pressure of the people who're struggling most, instead of insisting they be the first to challenge norms of femininity.

I feel the same way as you do there jeanne (and have my own tiny white middle-class educated woman violin too)

I guess as Ebearhug says too it's just that the prom thing seems so over the top from a UK POV (though of course we tend to see that which is portrayed in the media so perhaps not always accurate), that it is an overblown thing to conform to where there might be other things that could feel inclusive but less "rigid adherence to patriarchal standards" iyswim. But on the other hand it is perhaps a big cultural rote of passage to attend and feel likeyou fit into the prom stuff that it is an incentive and an inclusive thing for people who are often excluded as jeanne says

Rite of passage obv

I think it's quite a nice rite of passage, though? I do raise eyebrows at proms held at the sort of school where, FFS, of course they all stayed on to 16, but I was watching those 'Educating ...' programmes and thinking, yes, if it's been a major battle to get through to GCSEs, this is a good way to honour that and make a fuss of people.

I do take the point about it gettin overblown/patriarchial.

Yes depending on how it's done as you say - no reason why there couldn't be a lovely do to celebrate the rite of passage

Focus on a partner of the opposite sex (and therefore "failure" if alone or same-sex partner), "traditions" like loss of virginity, or expectation of sex generally, feeling forced to conform to stereotypes at risk of ridicule etc - none of course necessary to a successful leavers' ball but often part of the culture as portrayed to us in proms (I know you know all this of course!)

Would be interesting to hear what folks in the U.S. on here think of the initiative with their own experiences of proms

We were the first year to have a prom at my school (in the upper sixth) - we organised it ourselves, because we wanted a big blow-out - it was the rite of passage thing. Many of us had been at school forever (it was a small town), indeed, even since pre-school in some cases. But it wasn't an over the top, expensive do, because we were doing it ourselves. The most expensive bit was the marquee. (Ah, I remember when it were all school fields round those houses...) Some people did get their hair specially done and so on, but it didn't matter if you didn't, and it didn't matter if you didn't have a partner.

Someone at work this year was talking about their 16yo's prom, and there was a competition to see who could arrive in the most outrageous transport - it's that sort of competitiveness (it's not like putting a few ribbons on the car, it's hiring stretch limos and helicopters) I don't like.

I do totally get the importance of social inclusion, especially when you're 16 or so (and having been one of the ones who has never really been at the centre of things, socially) but it should be the focus on being involved, rather than normality in terms of heterosexual coupledom and the "right" dress and right makeup and right transport.

A quick google about prom charities (to try and remind me of the name, which I still haven't found) show there are quite a few of them, and they're called things like the Glass Slipper Project, Fairy Godmothers Inc, Prom Fairy Foundation, the Princess Project - I feel a lot more twitchy about the values names like that are holding than things like the Prom Project or Dress to Remember, although probably they're all doing something pretty similar. (I'm going to have to look at my meeting minutes tomorrow to see what the name actually was.) Some of them (possibly all of them) do also do tuxes for the boys.

I do think rites of passage should be marked, and I think leaving school is a pretty big deal, but that's the bit to celebrate, not the competitive over-consumption.

I too have been to a black tie do in black tie, mostly on account of not being bothered to find a new dress. It went down a storm - I bet if a bloke had turned up in a ballgown, there's a strong chance he'd have been turned away, even if he looked as good as Grayson Perry at the palace. There's definitely an inequality there.

Proms.

Rite of passage. Hmm. There was an article in the papers many moons ago about this family designing some rite of passage stuff for their son (I think) - like take a long-distance train journey alone or perform something in public or some such. But I guess that's not very exciting...

Our Rite Of Passage will almost certainly include making me a cup of decent tea.

I don't remember leaving school, primary or secondary. God I must have been completely head-in-the-clouds.

We had a leaver's ball at school in South Africa (this was 25 years ago and it was already a very well-established tradition from as far back as anyone could rememner). We were all 18 as there was no option to leave school before that. In my year one of the most popular girls wore a tux because she didn't fancy a frock, and everyone though it was fantastic. Other girls didn't wear makeup, I didn't wear heels (and was the only girl still with her shoes on at the end of the night ).

So I'm all for balls/proms and rites of passage, but I agree that ostentatious shows and stupid consumerism are, well, stupid!

Proms here are a dance at the high school (which is really dressed up).
Anyone can go from age 14 up, but the seniors who are graduating get the most fuss, a new dress etc. the parents decorate the school, and it is open to the whole town the next day for everyone to look around. Missing it would be like not having an 18th birthday celebration (which doesn't happen here) at all. So it would be pretty harsh to miss out on that.

I remember being incredibly bemused by everyone talking about "leaving school" and "end of an era" type stuff at 16, because most of us were staying on for 6th form anyway, so it was just a long summer holiday really. I'm very glad we didn't do a prom type thing then. We did do a "leavers' dinner" when we left upper 6th and that felt a lot more special because we were actually leaving school and all going off doing our own thing.

My current school don't officially do a prom, but the students always organise something themselves at the end of year 11. They don't go in for the fancy limos and helicopters type thing, and pretty much everyone in the year goes to it, either as part of a couple or as a group of friends. I do think it's good to mark rites of passage, but I'd rather it wasn't a huge fancy competition.

I didn't have a special 18th birthday either.

Never felt left out though. Odd.

kickass - with us, the 11th form would decorate the hall for the 12th form, and the dance was only open to the 12th form (though they can take anyone as a partner). I had a brilliant time in the 11th form doing the decorating - we worked on it for weeks. And then got to go to that dance too because my boyfriend was in 12th form. Then the next year it was fantastic to go to our own dance with the hall so beautifully decorated by that year's 11th form.

Went swimming today after a break. I ache all over and am starving. I thought this exercise business is supposed to be good for you. >

Ooo! Sound of toast popping up!

That's a really nice tradition annie

We had leavers' balls at 16 and 18 (my school didn't have a sixth form so everyone was leaving at 16). 16 one was good fun, but at the 18 one I had got myself mixed up with a lad who didn't exactly have my best interests at heart and it was all rather fraught as I tried to extricate myself from that situation. God I would have done things differently now!

As an American, I have had a bit of experience with proms: attended two in high school, helped my daughter and son prepare for two each, and have chaperoned several. Where we live in Florida, they are not really OTT consumption-fests, but rites of passage as young people experience their first adult social rituals. I had great fun helping my children get ready for their proms, especially my son, who insisted on practice forays with DH and me to the restaurant he was going to with his friends for pre-prom dinner and dancing with me and his older sister for weeks leading up to the big night.

I think the prom-helping nonprofits are doing a good thing on the whole, but I do wish they would not use names like Princess Project.

this made me laugh

So where we work we have sold our soul to Microsoft. Fine. But why does Office 365 have to bloody change every few weeks? Will it kill them to have the same menu for a while? Maybe it will? Bastards.

Sorry. Not a feminist rant. A Microsoft Rant.

Petula Very funny.

maybe if the microsoft ceo had encouraged women to ask for pay rises there would be more motivation among the workforce for the product to be better designed and with more consideration for users

Women asking for pay rise? You should be grateful you have a job at all. And you should definitely not be paid as much as men. After all men have to earn a living to support their families. Women are only working for pin money. (Actual words said to a friend's mother in the Good Old Days.)

Say Yes to the Dress is the prom dress charity I had heard of before.