Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

[YonicSleighdriver]

Festive greetings!

This is the 15th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, get some booze and snacks and hang out! Lurkers, newbies and oldbies welcome.

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and we cheer each other up when patriarchy grinds us down...

Last pub drinkie linkie:

Pub 14

I've looked it up and I can get an extension since it expired less than six months ago and it doesn't cost anything, but I don't know. We don't have the money, realistically, I don't even have it available, especially with having to get to the consulate as well so perhaps I won't go anyway. I'm glad I got to see her at the wedding :) She was so happy that she could come.

Sorry for your loss Bertie. :(

Thanks Dragon.

So sorry to hear your sad news, bertie.

Meanwhile, the Guardian today - apparently in 2014 "the feminism PR battle was largely won"

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/dec/22/heroes-villains-victories-women-2014-street-harrassment-feminist-landmarks

• I kind of agree that this year as a whole, is the first in a while that I can remember people of note standing up for feminism. Lord knows it needs it after the slagging off of the past while, but this has been quite heartening.

Less heartening is this review

www.theguardian.com/film/2014/dec/11/tinker-bell-and-the-legend-of-the-neverbeast-review

So lazy, such knee-jerk dismissal of girls' stuff. It is absolutely shocking that a review in a national paper can be published where the reviewer has made a blatant, key factual mistake - he clearly barely watched the thing.

Say what you like about Disney fairies, this film smashes through the Bechdel test. It is set in a world full of females who make all the decisions, all the mistakes, take care of everything and learn stuff as they go. If the choice is between consuming "general" media (ie male media) in which girls are lookers on, or "girls" media in which males are irrelevant and girls do everything, then I think the latter may be better.

Annie, I don't like your snotty tone about the people posting that Facebook thing. I recognise it. It reflects my life and the lives of most of the couples I know. I don't like it that that is how it is, but it is in no way anti-feminist to highlight inequality of domestic labour and you might see this as a useful tool of consciousness raising rather than being snotty about the people who recognise their reality in it. I am certainly not going to berate all women who haven't managed to get their men to take an equal role in domestic labour because it's not their fault. it is the fault of the men who don't do it. Frankly I hardly know any woman whose man does an equal share. sorry but this is my life.

I am not sure I belong on here any more. I used to find this a very supportive and thoughtful place but I am finding it increasingly less thoughtful and less supportive. I am closer to being a radical feminist than a choice feminist and I will argue hard on this, but there is increasingly a vibe of contempt and dismissal for other women that I find sad and very counter productive.

for me a crucial part of feminism is identifying and naming conventional, normal women's oppression day to day. What this means is that a lot of clever, effective, interesting women are not empowered realisitically to live non-oppressed lives. What this means is that we have to respect them as they are, rather than despising what they haven't been able to change. Otherwise you are saying there is no need for feminism. If you are saying "why are you living there in that patriarchal space when you could so easily move to my perfect feminist space, or just re-jig yours to being a feminist space?" then you don't get patriarchy and you don't respect your sisters.

Sorry for such a bossy post. Peace on earth and good will to all women!

I know everyone is finding their own way. me too.

Happy christmas all feminists x

Sorry to hear of your loss, Bertie.

I agree with Eilis, I don't know of any couples where it's truly equal. If I defriended all my friends on FB who post that sort of rubbish then I probably wouldn't have any friends left. Being a single parent actually makes it easier - I have to do it all myself but at least I don't have to feel bad that I have proved hopeless at making a man participate in it all.

Oh god, another poor woman in Relationships is being repeatedly raped but doesn't see it as rape as her H wouldn't actually restrain her if she tried to get away.

Ellis, I am sorry that you feel like that about the FWR threads and I'm sure I've contributed to your annoyance, for which I apologize.

But (I know, I know) I read Annie's post differently. The way I see it, I'm not annoyed at the women whose reality is of domestic inequality (I did all the housework with my first live in boyfriend, so it'd be rather hypocritical of me). What I don't like, though, is the "oh ha ha, benign smile, yes this is what it is like in my house, ah bless the menz, menz will be menz". I know we have a different opinion on this, based on our previous discussion about the, eh, Blonde, but for me it just reminds me too much of my mother who was happily assimilated into the Patriarchy and tried to exert power through what she thought "acceptable female behaviour": gossip, manipulation, Queen Bee status and guilt.

I have to say, I agree. I didn't read Annie's post as patronising in that way. God knows it is something almost all of us on here in relationships struggle with.

It's more the 'ha ha, that's how life is. Isn't it funny how men get to be lazy and selfish' think I thought she was objecting to. Bit like that stupid supermarket advert a Christmas or two ago (was it ASDA) where the mum runs herself ragged making everyone's Christmas great, doesn't even get a chair for Christmas dinner and this is presented as the perfect mother and the perfect Christmas.

I never know quite how to respond to all that stuff, especially this time of year. I don't want to be snotty, but at the same time, when women talk about how they are run into the ground and doing all the cards, shopping, cooking, etc and all their DH will do is run out on Christmas Eve and buy them a present, and wouldn't know what the kids wanted if it hit them in the face, I always feel like that is something we should be talking about as tough. As a challenge in their relationship. As something a bit shitty they are coping with (like a child struggling at school, or a boss being a bully). But instead they are often shared as humorous stories. Except not that humorous really, because the damage is still done by the overwork.

I agree that is the difference between how it is and how it should be (or more depressingly, how it always was and how it always will be). It's up there with "boys will be boys" for rage-inducement.

Oops sorry I was going for cursive here: oh ha ha, benign smile, yes this is what it is like in my house, ah bless the menz, menz will be menz

Elis, I'm sorry you're not finding the support you need here. I myself find it incredibly supportive and also a place where we challenge women's place in the patriarchy without judging individual women for the choices they make within it. As such I don't recognise your version of this group at all. I think it's also important to remember that this group is no more or less than the contributions of its members. So if you feel there are things lacking or attitudes which are not as feminist as they might be, the onus is on you to bring the change you'd like to see rather than insisting we all fall in line with your personal feminist philosophy.

I'm rather surprised you read my post as "snotty" and condemning of women. It was posted, as others have correctly interpreted, in despair that even among women, our continued domestic slavery is seen as something to joke about, and "just the way it is, cos men, bless 'em, just don't know how to fold a pair of socks".

If this is typical of how you're interpreting posts, it's not surprising you're struggling with your experience here.

I don't feel personally unsupported, the opposite. I feel that in many ways I fit in well enough to get support here very easily and I have had much and am grateful for it. but I feel that there is a danger of everyone falling into a trap of staggering in here rolling eyes at the barbarians at the gates outside.

Fib, I don't remember ever being annoyed by you.

I get what you mean about the jolly eye rolling manner of finding it hilarious that you man is a lazy arse. And that should be challenged if you feel that is what you are dealing with.

I think this "My comment that any woman who put up with that is either a mug or being abused was not received well." is what bothered me. It's just closing it down, and it doesn't help.

Who wants to say they are a mug?
Who wants to say they are being abused?
So where do you go from a comment like that?

And it's not true. Many women who are neither, in general, mugs, nor being abused, do far more than men at home. they just do. It is just not the case that you can just understand feminsism, and then put your foot down, and then find you live with a man who does the same amount of cleaning. I mean seriously who actually thinks that? And who blames the woman in houses where that hasn't worked?

I guess maybe I shouldn't be in the pub, maybe that is the way all quiches are going to go eventually - a certain established tone that you may or may not like. I don't like the tone of superiority - not because I feel that is applies to me - but because I don't feel like I want to be part of a group where the prevailing mood is to look down on others. I fought very hard against those accusations in the great FWR wars and I always thought until recently that it was nonsense. But I just feel more and more that things that disparage individual women, as opposed to things that people do, or even The Patriarchy, are being held up and tutted at without challenge.

It's harder to do it another way. It is more difficult, yes, not to fall into all that; it is hard to have beliefs and standards and ideals and aspirations without falling into the trap of being knee-jerk negative about others. But so so so worth doing.

btw the posters I have felt that least from are the ones that some others seem to think take the toughest tone - Outself for instance posts with great precision and integrity about never slagging individuals off. I think we need more, not less intellectual rigour, and I think we need to think more creatively and grandly and expansively about a world which shows love and respect as standard to all women, and not a little clique in a pub.

I'm sorry I will get off the high horse now. I think the place has changed and I guess it's just me that's in the wrong place. So I will go now and wish you all a very happy Christmas and all the best.

Happy Christmas Ellis.

Well, I have to say that in some instances I do blame women who are complicit in their own oppression. It makes it infinitely harder for those of us fighting to end that oppression when there are so many women behind us who seem quite happy to be martyrs, and who remain oppressed for no other reason than that they can't be bothered to actually think about the issues. There are opponents of feminism who argue that it's a culture of "being a victim", and in many ways I do agree. At some point we have to stop blaming everything on Patriarchy and take responsibility for ourselves. And not taking on the lion's share of the housework is an easy place to start.

Being a feminist does mean I have to be fluffy and nice to all women all the time. It doesn't mean I have to accept that in every instance they are oppressed and can't fight back, because sometimes they can and still don't. The idea that women must be kind and understanding to all other women at all times is nothing more than an extension of the patriarchy's notion that women are the caretakers and the caregivers. Well that's just not my nature. When I see women sharing "jokes" that hurt other women I will speak out, and it won't always be nicely.

Perhaps my comment to my friend wasn't the best though-out for advancing the cause of feminism. But, as I'm a human being, sometimes I'm allowed to just speak for myself, not as an ambassador for feminism, but in a reactionary manner as a person who is pig-sick of "humour" based on women's oppression.

Sorry, "Being a feminist doesn't mean I have to be fluffy and nice".

I will add though, that being frustrated and snappy does not equate to feeling superior, and I'm pretty annoyed, Elis, that you seem to think that's where I'm coming from, so much so that you used the word "snooty" twice in your first message and talk about "looking down on others" in your second. Both personally and for others in the pub, that's pretty freakin' offensive.

As someone who was made to feel very unwelcome by a clique somewhere else on MN cough, Style and Beauty, cough, I have to say I haven't seen any cliquey behaviour here.

Sorry just to be clear, I do not mean that anyone here is being nasty to actual posters who come along and engage. I just mean that the tone in a broader sense is gradually, generally, becoming one I am less and less comfortable with. I get that it is my problem and not the pub's, I just don't like it here any more on the whole, I suddenly realise.

I mean sure Annie, you are only human, arne't we all, and I guess the function of this space vis a vis one's imperfect humanity is what I am struggling with.

It sounds like you expect - perhaps rightly - all the posters on here to go "damn right, well said, they are all fucking doormats, glad you put them in their place" (and for all I know maybe that is an entirely appropriate tone to take with your friends on FB).

but I saw that meme in a completely different way, and the women posting it in a completely different way. I saw this popping up in a way that suggested certain women are becoming aware of things in a way that maybe opens up a a chink into which you can insert a lever for change. so when someone comes on here and is all "GRRRRRR bloody idiots I put them in their place" and everyone raises a ggass and goes "glad to here it, welcome in here where we are all right all the time" I just feel like, well I guess it isn't a style of discourse that is taking me somewhere that is intellectually or emotionally interesting or extending to me. It would surely be more interesting to say "why are all my friends on facebook acknowledging that they work harder than their men and yet I can't tell whether they want to do something about that or not? What coudl they do about it? how do we take the conversation on from here?"

and no, as you can surely tell, I am not a force for all-round fluffiness either. I don't think you, or I, or anyone should be fluffier. I think we (especially me) should be better.

Happy Christmas Eilis

Self-improvement is a worthy goal, Elis. However, your posts have made me feel like you have wandered into this pub, a safe space for me, and poured a pint of bitter over my head and tried to pretend it was all in the name of self-improvement for all. I'm finding it hard to just sit back and accept that I "had it coming" so I will disengage from you now before my comments to you get any more hostile than they already are.

^"I just feel like, well I guess it isn't a style of discourse that is taking me somewhere that is intellectually or emotionally interesting or extending to me. It would surely be more interesting to say "why are all my friends on facebook acknowledging that they work harder than their men and yet I can't tell whether they want to do something about that or not? What coudl they do about it? how do we take the conversation on from here?""
^

A genuine question, but is there a reason you didn't say that? agree that, without 'telling off' the original post, there's an interesting discussion to be had there. When you see all that 'ha ha, men are so useless, women have to do it all' stuff, how do you engage constructively? Especially without being shut down as someone who simply has no sense of humour.

Did you feel that we wouldn't want to join the discussion? Is it a thought you've formulated as the discussion has gone (fair enough, happens to me a lot. An instinctive response that develops).

I think that there is generally space in a pub for the "bloody hell this is irritating" post as well as the constructive, progressive debate.

My personal 'arghhhh' of the day is a Facebook selling group a friend added me to. I keep seeing posts like "I am after a bumbo suitable for a girl" so someone will say they have a red one or a green one, and the response is that they are after a girl one. And it isn't my place to engage, but for goodness sake. If you are after a pink one, say you want a pink one. If you just want a bumbo what on earth does 'suitable for a girl' mean. And why doesn't it include red and green?