Feminist Pub 15: The Bluestocking hangs up its, err, stocking and hopes for a chatty Christmas and a Feminist New Year

[YonicSleighdriver]

Festive greetings!

This is the 15th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, get some booze and snacks and hang out! Lurkers, newbies and oldbies welcome.

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and we cheer each other up when patriarchy grinds us down...

Last pub drinkie linkie:

Pub 14

I have just seen a tiny girl, aged about 2 with a dummy in her mouth which had the word 'flirt' on it. I think I might have just given up on the world

Bertie

Penguins I know what you mean re colours. I was informed by DD's keyworker at nursery that one of the other nursery staff keeps putting DD in pink deliberately when she needs the nursery spare clothes due to some accident or other (I hate pink so I never put her in it). Happily DD's keyworker and I both agree that other colours suit her more and that pink isn't mandatory, but honestly. It's bad enough that the nursery supplied bag I have to send her stuff in is bright pink (navy for the boys).

It's just so UNNECESSARY. She's one, it's not like she's about to become gender dysmorphic because she never gets to wear pink.

"When you see all that 'ha ha, men are so useless, women have to do it all' stuff, how do you engage constructively?"

This is a difficult one, I think. I get so many fb posts that get on my nerves - this type is one of them. There are also the pseudo-science type, the perfect-mother type, the how-to-be-beautiful type, the this-is-what-perfect-boyfriends-do type etc. Makes you long for baby photos. Which is fortunate since a few cousins just had babies ... Anyway, sometimes I post sarcastic replies, sometimes angry ones, sometimes factual ones and sometimes I just ignore...

Re reading The Handmaid's Tale tag the moment. It's been ages.

I should read that again, Yonic. I was quite young when I read it and certainly didn't identify as a feminist. I also naively laughed it of because, of course a developed modern nation like the US would never fall to religious fanaticism like that....

I imagine reading it again now would be a very different experience.

Me too Annie. I read it at uni in a Margaret Atwood binge.

I have read it loads of times. Bit of an Atwood junkie. Saw her speak earlier this year.

You find something new each time. Interestingly it was discussed on that radio 4 book programme recently and the male reviewer just didn't get it. Which I felt was in large part an inability to see parallels in women's real lived experience.

I don't think I've read anything else of hers. Perhaps I should rectify that once I'm done with Game of Thrones.

She has done some great stuff, across quite a few genres.

I came across something while I was at the library today. Although it follows on from the disagreement about 'blonde womenz' at work I was interested, although I didn't read it all as it wasn't relevant to the paper that I'm not writing atm.

It was saying how in the workplace there is now a recognized 'thing' that a person's sexual status can add to their overall work-place value. That this is something that women have known and become adept at for a long time, but now men are getting in on the act, as they are the main area for expansion of cosmetic surgery.

I'm kind of appalled by it. I'd far rather have LESS emphasis placed on looks and the internet has provided some interesting examples of how people can communicate without the judgement being based on appearance (e.g. the keyboard warriors who champion certain additional needs groups). But, people seem to be over compensating for that by insisting on visual identification of a person (who is it with the photos but no job title at work?), even when they don't need it. Typically, it is people who fit into the expectations of how people should look who do better in work anyway, so this is just giving the 'winners' one more way to be reach the top and claim it was their innate ability, not the good luck of being born with a pretty face.

It seems that the people who are 'winners' in the myriad hierarchies in life aren't happy that there's a way to subvert their control, and are now trying to take it back, by insisting that they can present their 'perfected' face to the world, and ask to be judged on that.

Hope this makes sense - I am getting help from a cat atm.

Is that the sort of thing Catherine Hakim is on about? She published a book on erotic capital 2 or 3 years ago. I haven't actually read it, but the gist I got from reviews was that it exists, so you might as well accept that and make it work for you.

I'd rather judge people on their abilities. No point looking stunning if you keep corrupting servers because you don't know how to configure them properly. Though probably you will be able to rely on the good will/lust-based hope that you'll owe them one of others for longer than a less hood-looking incompetent person would. That doesn't make it something you should strive for.

I read an article once about software companies that were trying to eliminate bias by conducting blind programming tests where the candidates were online and had to do some group coding task. The interviewers only had their usernames which were, of course, gender, race and age neutral.

I also remember reading about the erotic capital. That's something that, for example, sales people have used since forever, but I think now it's expanding to corporate roles. I actually learnt something from it: rather than take it to that extreme and use my sexuality, which apart from bristling my feminist self would backfire on me surely, I found that making an extra effort to be nice and sociable, which doesn't come naturally to the introvert in me, buys me some goodwill for when things go pear shaped or for conflict resolution. So I now go see people or call them on the phone rather than send out emails, and I've been surprised at how much building up that rapport has benefited me. But I don't think I'm using the erotic capital at all. Well, I guess the MD who used to leer at me up and down every time we spoke might opine differently

I remember about the erotic capital thing. It made me feel deeply uncomfortable, but I haven't thought much more about it, not having too much of that sort of capital. But I do make myself do the smile-and-be-sociable thing. That's not the same thing, is it?

Just popping in to say Merry Xmas to all and wish you a happy 2015

"A genuine question, but is there a reason you didn't say that?"

Well that would have been better, obviously, just trigger-happy posting reacting to what I see here, so I guess unnecessarily inflammatory

" agree that, without 'telling off' the original post, there's an interesting discussion to be had there. When you see all that 'ha ha, men are so useless, women have to do it all' stuff, how do you engage constructively? Especially without being shut down as someone who simply has no sense of humour."

Well there are two questions and the really thorny one is the other one: what tools do women have who do recognise labour inequality in the home, and name it is such, to change it?

If (being very simplstic, I am sure things rarely work like this in real life, but for the sake of argument)

suppose there is a process / progress for a woman that works:

1. conventional standard situation of working double domestic shifts, to the benefit of her husband

1. consciousness-raised: recognising oppression in her own domestic situation, and naming it

1. doing something about it

1. being free and having personal relationships based on equality and respect

My personal view is that for heterosexual women arriving at no. 4 is very very rare. It is the huge gulf of WTF? in no. 3 that interests me. No 2 is something that many women are hovering on the edge of all the time and it is interesting to wonder how you convert a position of "ha ha ha how hilarious that I and ny women friends have to work so hard relative to our husbands" into no. 2. But no. 2 is actually very very painful without no 3. That is where the aggression comes from - it is a reaction to being seen to want to inflict pyschological pain on your friends.

So I think that 3 is where the interesting question is. When you offer a solution to no 3 I think you are in a stronger position to suggest a woman might move from 1 to 2, which is entirely within her own power. Moving a woman into 2 without offering 3 is causing her pain which is why there is resistance, not because of "the way you say it" but because of the actual content - you are lumbering a women with a painful problem with no solution. So "how to be charming on facebook" is rather a side issue.

What I object to in Annie's tone is not a question of "how to be charming on facebook, which is our primary responsibility" but the point that being stuck in no. 1 or 2. is not a personal failing. it is just life because 3 is just a huge question mark, and 4 is unusual. So when women join together to bond over 1 or 2 (which is it when they post that meme? and are they thinking about no. 3 even as they do it?) then they aren't just ignorant troglodytes.

Sorry to go on about this after I said I was going. I guess that "why didn't you say that?" question made me think, er, maybe I should. So I know this is stale now and sorry for dragging it all out. But I have been thinking a lot (maybe inspired by Buffy) about different styles of discourse and how some of the least privileged are in some contexts the most effective, in terms of carrying greater freight. and thinking about how "fluffy, silly" stuff really works to do certain things. And maybe carrying those thoughts into facebook memes... if this is how normal people do communicate, what communicative work is being done here? How is it working, what purposes does it serve, and how do you engage with this rather than dismissing it?

And of course always in the background the awareness that anything coded "feminine" will be dismissed and always being on guard against doing it myself

That's a really interesting post, and I don't have time today to do it justice. Will come back and have a read another time.

I suppose my instinctive addition is that it's bloody hard to move to 3 if the rest of the world is on 1. and pointing and laughing at you. Is there something to be said for moving a lot more people to 2 as a starting point? Or is that, as you said, basically sacrificing them to pain for no personal gain? Hmmm

Sorry, poor grammar there. For "a lot more people moving to 2". They aren't chess pieces!

" I suspect women posting these patriarchy approved notions would feel similarly. "

They aren't patriarchy approved notions! I don't think so anyway. the patriarchy approved position is that women don't do any more than men, they just faff about making mountains out of molehills which is why they can't get out the door or go to bed without some efficient man getting there first and probably tapping his foot. This meme is part of the internal discourse among women which recognises that women are working while men are not. Men do not recognise this and if they did half of them wouldn't be able to live with themselves. this is why this meme is being posted among women because they are the only people you can speak the truth with.

I think we have real differences about the actual content of that meme. I don't see it as saying "all is right with the world when women are working and men are going to bed." I see it as simply saying "women are always working when men are going to bed!" and I see that as factually true in most heterosexual relationships. I don't see that saying that as a fact is "patriarchy approved"

the question is - "so where is the revolt?" where indeed. I don't think we can pin the lack of the revolt on that one meme or those who recognise something in it to post it.

Anything good starts with solidarity. How do you use instruments like that to build solidarity with those who are working while their men are in bed?

I may be wrong (and over simple here), but this is what I think has happened:

annie posted, having been reading FB and feeling like an outsider in a big community of women whose posts were wearing her down.

ellis read this post assuming annie was posting as an insider in a big community of women and worried that some women would feel hurt and upset to see their perfectly innocently-held views characterised this way.

Right?

I don't think it is about whether or not judging other women is a good thing. I think, on the whole, it isn't. But sometimes, we need space to have a rant here because we can't have a rant anywhere else.

I am sure at some stage in these holidays, I will want very much to come on here and let off steam about my female relatives. Yes, it will sound horribly unsupportive, and yes, I will sound like a judgy feminist. But I will also be at the end of my tether and fed up, and I'll feel better for being able to rant without someone telling me not to overthink things!

Hello all, just popping in to wish you all a very merry Christmas/Happy Holidays. Thank you all for your fabulous posts, I bloody love MN FWR. It was a real pleasure to meet some of you this year.

I am switching off my brain now but recent posts have been really interesting so will re-engage on the other side of Christmas. If I start posting after a few too many snowballs please ignore

I think that the motive behind posting that meme could be as varied as there are people in the world. If I posted it, it would be a form of protest to highlight inequality and try to raise consciousness. If my sister posted it she would be glorifying her role as a housewife and trying to teach her daughters to act like this.

So I think we have to realize that the same object can carry different messages for different people, which is why FB is so difficult to read as it is open to such wide interpretation. What is perhaps neede is a less ambiguous meme which carries the message of inequality, but points towers the third stage of a way to change that.

And how do we react towards women who have fully embraced patriarchal views and actively promote and encourage them, judging women who don't conform to them? My family and dh's are rife with them, so I assume there are plenty out in the big wide world? I see those women as both victims of patriarchy but tools as well, so how do we deal with that?

"I am uncomfortable with a construction of Facebook meme sharers that implies we need to teach them anything." Me too! That is my problem with the whole thing.
Where you do see things differently from others, you can use artefacts like this is a point upon which to crystallise and articulate your position. It isn't a case of " oh those FB morons". And that is exactly what I am uncomfortable with in the notion of a "safe space". As if we are surrounded in general by barbarians and thank goodness all these people here are just like me, ie, better. Because we aren't as all that as some of us think we are.

"So I think we have to realize that the same object can carry different messages for different people," Right - I just went back to where I saw it shared on FB and the many tens of thousands of comments upon in (none from people I knew) were very varied and many very nuanced. However none were uncritically endorsing traditional domestic gender roles. One of them was "and that is why I am bringing up my sons differently."

"And how do we react towards women who have fully embraced patriarchal views and actively promote and encourage them, judging women who don't conform to them?" That's a different and difficult question. Where there is a generation gap it is seems unkind to be implicitly trashing someone's life's work. but where you have to protect yourself and your daughters, you have to do what you have to do.

you see, Ellis, I think that sometimes, doing what we have to do means coming on here and moaning, hoping that no-one will trounce us for it.

My sister, for example, is perfectly happy with a DH who earns mega money but is making his teen daughters live on a pittance for an allowance and she worries about making the housekeeping stretch when we go to visit her. He owns 8 cars. There's a huge number of examples I could give to show how entrenched within the patriarchy, and what an outspoken supporter of it, she is. I try to say and do a little to show that there are other ways to live, but I am treated like some troublesome teen with two heads who just needs to grow up. Expect my husband to cook a meal? Haha. Actually voice what I want to watch o TV? Don't be so awkward. Refuse to iron his shirts? Other men would leave me for that.

It is hard when encountering women like that not to bite back. Just because my sister got a rich husband, she thinks the system works, and is adamant that we should all be part of it. She can be nasty and bitchy about people who don't conform to the norm (e.g. laughing loudly at a kid who had a slightly unusual nickname) and see it as perfectly OK because THEY are the odd ones.

When it is a woman who does this, it feels like betrayal. It isn't just the frustration of butting my head up against her ideas, it is the pain of her rejection and patronising of me, which makes me angry and resentful. If I come on here and say something scathing about her, it is those emotions I'm responding to. It isn't because I think we are some collective of 'better' people who have seen the light, but because here is a space where I can express my outrage and pain about these situations. I may use unpleasant language and even call my sister a bitch, but I will also get back out there and engage in a more positive way once I've had my 'time out' over here.

I have no idea if Annie sneers at other women in real life, or if there's a long back story of those women sneering at her, and finally she cracked. I can give her some space to put forward her resentment, and to engage a little positively about how/why these things could change. We all speak/write hastily at times, and a little more compassion is never a bad thing.