Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

I know women who have with held sex to get their own way - does that count?

It's not on a par with the mass rape of women by men in DRC, for example, Brighton, no.

withholding sex is hardly on a par with rape

and the situation whereby women are in the position of gatekeepers of sex is fundamentally misogynist

Oh my word....

Not allowing a man to penetrate you because you're pissed off with him is in no way equal to mass rapes in Nigeria.

Petula,

I have a friend who will withhold sex to get her own way. Do you mean this makes her partner a misogynist?

Do people really think that women witholding sex to get stuff

(and how often does that really happen? and how often is it that the woman doesn't want sex with him full-stop but he goes on and on and on and on and go on I'll do this or that until she caves and he takes it as "Oh she was with-holding sex to get stuff, women use sex as a weapon yessirree bob")

Anyway do people really think that women witholding sex to get stuff

(oh and given in much of the world and history and everything women have no power financial or otherwise and so maybe it's the only bartering tool they've got although again I would question whether it works that way as in societies with that set-up rape is going to be just as endemic as anywhere else and anyway rape within marriage was legal here until relatively recently and etc)

Anyway do people really think that women witholding sex to get stuff ("using sex as a weapon")

assuming it happens blah etc

Is on a par with rape as a weapon of war?

Seeing not having sex with someone as a weapon being equivalent to penetrating a woman who doesn't want to be penetrated is beyond my comprehension.

Shall we use that ludicrous chocolate cake analogy on this one? It works too, but not in the way the original utterer intended.

"I have a friend who will withhold sex to get her own way. Do you mean this makes her partner a misogynist?"

He could have a wank?

Bizarre.

Women like sex. If they are with-holding sex they want, they are punishing themselves as well. If they are with-holding sex they don't want, well that's perfectly reasonable isn't it.

I have never in my whole entire life met a woman who said she did this. I think it is a thing that men have made up to pretend women have some power when they don't actually and/or to make excuses as to why their partner doesn't want to fuck them.

Just a theory, that one.

Hi Seven,

Yes, my friend withholds sex to get her own way - she's happy to tell me!

I am not sure where the leap to rapes in Nigeria came from, obviously no ration person would draw a link.

Maybe to make an excuse as to why they need to resort to coercion and/or other more forceful methods to obtain the sex they are owed from their recalcitrant partner who is clearly just saying no because they want something and not because they mean it.

Hmmmmm.

Yes, it's a dysfunctional relationship. And one of choice, going back to previous posts.

Withholding access to your body for manipulative reasons is not equivalent to letting someone ejaculate inside you when you are unwilling, however unpleasant.

Are you all women who are arguing against this? Just how divorced from your bodies are you?

I didn't say her male partner was a misogynist. I said it was a misogynist idea - that women are gatekeepers of sex and they are the ones with the power to deprive men of their vital needs

Cos if a woman is "using sex as a weapon" from a man's perspective - by saying no when in his opinion she should be saying yes - it is perfectly reasonable for him to "use sex as a weapon" right back, surely.

Just thinking out loud here.

A lot of men do think they are "owed sex" and hate women who won't "give it" to them when they think they should. There's that whole movement in the US around it, I forget what it's called.

YY seven

Hi Petula - Thank you, I understand now!

Hi Crotch - I guess I would be interested on people's opinions as to why when a man is being manipulated it is seen as a relationship of choice but when a woman is being manipulated people go as far as to call it rape?

I hate to say it but sounds to me as though Finnegan is a victim of mysoginistic culture just like the vast majority of men and women on this earth. She too is so influenced by male perspective she doesn't even understand the betrayal to her own gender of her words.

Because the man being manipulated in this case isn't being penetrated against his will

It's a dysfunctional relationship IMO and I would hope that most self-respecting men would not want to continue with that situation.

AHardyFool Of course she is, she has been fed rape myths in the same way as everyone has. She was drunk. She wore a short skirt. She's not a virgin. Insert reason why she was raped here. JF was massively misguided and ignorant to have further perpetuated those rape myths. I don't want to punch her, I want to shake some sense into the woman.

It's an old trope, but how would she feel if somebody went on national TV and said that because she was drunk and wasn't physically damaged, her daughter's rape wasn't that bad. I hate using examples like that, because his victim wasn't just somebody's daughter, she is a person in her own right.