Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

Can you not see that not having sex when you want is not the same as being penetrated (and ejaculated into) when you don't?

Baffling if you don't.

MyEmpireOfDirt, sorry, I've got a bit lost - on phone, so not always easy to follow posts. I think we agree :-)

I should use names. Soz.

Hi Crotch.

It's more the gendered attitudes towards emotional manipulation aspect that made me curious.

cadno, you said "As for hormones, it always feels to me, they are a very powerful driver of the male libido. There is a very real tension just prior to ejaculation, which disappears within seconds afterwards. I’ve often wondered what is happening chemically in the male body at those stages."

I'll let you in on a little secret. It's exactly the same for women. The tension, the release, and that line you cross just before climax when the tension is utterly intolerable and absolutely requires an orgasm to follow or you'll just implode and you can only writhe in a perfect balance of agony and ecstasy until you get that release.

But what I don't understand is why a vagina (or woman's mouth or anus) are essential to this process. To the point where a man will go on to rape a woman and claim he "couldn't stop" if consent is withdrawn. Why can't he just pull out and wank to completion? Afaik most men manage to masturbate successfully and he wouldn't even need to break rhythm to finish himself off.

You and others may say it's "hormones". I and others say it boils down to entitlement. Men feel they are entitled to women's bodies and in that moment when the brain shuts down, the lifetime of conditioning that women are for sex takes over. I suspect that given a lifetime of conditioning involving enthusiastic consent and absolute respect for women would result in men managing to "instinctively" pull out just fine.

Absolutely Puffins. As I read her comments about the drunkenness I thought; 'she said this because it's what she has heard over and and over again'. We all hear it. I even had to correct my mother recently on a similar point of view.

I think of how when we become politically aware as youngsters - taking our parents views initially perhaps, and then taking on board the alternative messages we pick up along the way until we have our own set of beliefs. This doesn't happen so much with gender issues. We don't hear those different views because no woman, or man, dares to stick her/his head above the parapet and actually question what we are saying about men and their power and control over and with regard to women.

The women don't challenge it because they are victims of it, and maybe they'll get beaten, called fat, accused of being a 'lezza' dungaree wearing bra burner type, rejected by their boyfriend, piss off their DP's boss, whatever. And the men don't because, well, that probably renders them a bit gay in the eyes of testosterone fuelled, ignorant macho men. At the very least, it is emascualting to defer to the wife, right?

Even I am influenced by these attitudes, because I DID talk to my DD about the risks of walking down the lane to school with her skirt hitched up. I am, at least aware of the dire state of things expressed in my warnings to her.

Quadruple post. This is getting into the realms of the romeo & juliet debacle that still puts some posters off Feminism.

Ejaculation, or even simply penetration, is not an equivalent act for both sexes. No matter how hard the equalists want it to be.

Crotch Maven - why not?

Why not what?

Agreed Ahardyfool I think there is also a healthy dose of rape myths serving men well. If women have internalised that being drunk, wearing what you like, going anywhere you like is not an option for women, and that those women who do these things run a risk of getting themselves raped, and by inference, deserve that, it takes the blame for the crime away from the men who perpetrate it.

It makes women the gatekeepers of sex, which allows men to use the 'she consented' defence so successfully. If there was an onus of enthusiastic consent, of having to prove that the victim did consent, there would be a lot more positive outcomes in rape cases, plus, it would change people's mindsets about what consent actually is. And what it isn't is a man whining and going on and on until the woman gives in and lets him.

I think for me that this is the difference. There is an old belief that women 'just need a bit of persuading' because of course, women aren't really supposed to enjoy sex. It's about when that bit of persuading turns into something else really, isn't it? I think the difference between Brighton's 'women use sex as a weapon' example is that it is a passive thing, whereas a man using sex as a weapon is active?

Sorry, am tired, so might not be making enormous amounts of sense.

Annie

I'll let you in on a little secret. It's exactly the same for women. The tension, the release, and that line you cross just before climax when the tension is utterly intolerable and absolutely requires an orgasm to follow or you'll just implode and you can only writhe in a perfect balance of agony and ecstasy until you get that release.

No secret to be honest, I've seen it for myself. I'm just very careful not to talk about womens' experiences.

I think the term 'male entitlement' is wrong - certainly I don't think I have an 'entitlement' for sex from women. I don't get that impression from the (many) men I know either - of course, I'm not there at the bedside, as it were, so I don't know what goes on for others then.

There is certainly 'an expectation' and 'desire', but I think the term 'entitlement' is deliberately misleading/antagonistic - but hardly a surprise though.

There is an expectation of sex from the men you know? That is all entitlement is really. It has picked up some other connotations, but the belief that men having an expectation of sex is pretty much it.

Really, this expectation differs little - if at all - from that expectation of my (female) partners for sex too. - I thought you (not you personally) were saying it was something peculiar to men.

well, well.

expectation and desire are worlds apart - be interested to hear your thoughts on what 'expectation' means in a real life scenario and how that manifests itself if the outcome is different to the expectation.

I think 'entitled' refers to the point made earlier about men and this animalistic theory almost whereby men are somehow gripped by the force of their intentions and unable to stop themselves when things don't quite pan out as expected. I think people were saying that the entitlement culture is what has led to this moment becoming a fulfilment of a man's desires without question or hesitation 'in the moment' sufficient enough to prevent him forcing his wishes on the woman at that time.

Is it the feeding of the ideaology of male entitlement that results in this sort of impulsive reaction in some, or is it something else. For sure, not all men have their brains taken over in the same way. Though many, even gentle sharey carey men do and are guilty of rape.

The thing is, cadno, you say that you personally don't feel an entitlement for sex from women, and that the men you know don't either. So, as usual, NAMALT. But, as the recent campaign goes, Yes All Women. Most, if not all women have found themselves on the receiving end of the whole spectrum...

...men who might be written of as "crap in bed" who don't bother with foreplay and just pump away until they ejaculate with no concern for a women's pleasure. So while consent may have been given by the woman, it was given with the expectation of actually enjoying a shared experience, not just providing a vagina to wank into. And these men don't seem to notice (or care) that they woman isn't enjoying herself.

...men who push boundaries and try to talk women into performing acts they're not comfortable with, again, apparently not noticing or caring that the woman is not enjoying herself.

...men who feel that buying a woman dinner entitles them to sex.

...men who feel that buying a woman dinner entitles them to sex and will take if it not offered willingly.

...though to all the traditional definitions of rape.

Most women will experience at least one, and many experience them all.

So statistically speaking, that's one hell of a lot of men to whom their partner's satisfaction is pretty much irrelevant.

Why do you think that is, if not entitlement?

Hardy and Annie - it's grown late - I'll come back to you tomorrow with a reply - probably around lunchtime.

This stuff about women withholding sex to get their own way.

Surely it's more a case of when you fall out with someone, argue or disagree, then you are unlikely to feel like having sex with them.

The fact that some men would expect to have sex with a women they have fallen out with, just illustrates how bloody entitled they are.

an unenthusiastic yes is still a yes, and surely that is what consent (in any situation) turns on?

An unenthusiastic yes (where I might say yes to dh's advances in a scenario where he has made it known he wants to have sex) in a "I don't really want to, but may enjoy it of I do" mindset is VERY different to a 'If I say no, I am not sure I will get out of this situation without a beating/being raped/being killed" mindset!

Even after being pestered for several hours, & then giving in, because the alternative is sulking, blaming, name calling, having the huff, tutting etc etc is NOT consenting to sex because you want to do it, you are doing it because you do not like the outcome if you say no. You are being forced by the threat of the unfavourable outcome if you continue to say no.

An unenthusiastic yes isn't always rape, but in a lot of cases, it is. Because you fear for the outcome of continuing to say no.

I don't like the term "withholding" when it comes to a woman refusing to have sex (for any reason). Something about the word, rightly or wrongly, makes me think that a woman is holding back something that (some of) society thinks men are "entitled" to, at any time, under any circumstance & that a woman is wrong to withhold it, as it deprives a man of his "needs"

Does that make sense? Like access to a woman's body isn't hers to refuse in the first place. How dare she, etc..

why when a man is being manipulated it is seen as a relationship of choice but when a woman is being manipulated people go as far as to call it rape?

A woman is perfectly entitled to withhold access to her body, any time she likes. For whatever reason she likes. If she decides to use that to make her partner clean the house, then so be it. She is entitled to do so, and while I don't agree with using sex a bargaining tool, it isn't up to me to set the standards for anyone's relationships.

The above outlines that a woman isn't forcing a man to have sex, she is preventing him from using/having access to her body. You could say that she is forcing him to hoover*, but is that on a par with being forced to give consent to having your body penetrated when you don't want to?

When a man tries to manipulate a woman into sex, he is trying to use her body for his own pleasure. He doesn't care if she wants sex, or if she feels pleasured by it...he just cares about HIS needs & getting them met, he doesn't care that he has manipulated that yes from her.

The above outlines that a man is forcing a woman to let him have access to her body, not preventing HER access to HIS body!

*And he has a choice not to hoover, because in reality if he doesn't, all that happens is, he doesn't get sex. Which he can live without.

How many woman safely feel they have the right to refuse sex without having to be subjected to force/coercion/pressure/manipulation? Because if the man doesn't get it, he could just take it anyway, so she is giving in to a greater perceived threat & THAT is why it is not equal.

from that expectation of my (female) partners for sex too. - I thought you (not you personally) were saying it was something peculiar to men. The difference is, with this 'expectation' is that men have the power & means to take it, if he is so inclined, if she refuses. Woman don't have that means, nor the power.

I haven't read everything, but one thing stood out; male sexual physiology.
There is nothing in male sexual physiology that compels rape. There is a choice fir men too, and indeed many exercise their choice not to rape. It is to be expected really, as no one is entitled to sex with another person. Many women and men grasp this. It has nowt to do with physiology or biology.
My experience is with people with Both mindsets.

Argh, on phone.

Interesting Cadno. I have never met a woman who had an expectation of sex. A hope for it, a 'need', a desire, but never an expectation. Maybe you used the wrong word there again? Or maybe there is a difference in the way men and women view sex within relationships.