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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist pub no 12: The Bluestocking Returns, this time with goats!

999 replies

YonicScrewdriver · 05/10/2014 09:18

Welcome!

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JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/10/2014 22:26

Hey, lovely, don't feel like this. I know screaming at children isn't wonderful but I'm sure everyone's child has been screamed at at one time or another. Your LA colleagues sound infuriating. No wonder you run out of patience!

I think surely you are robust if you've coped with it all so far. This is not you being some shrinking violet. But you shouldn't have to cope with it!

JeanneDeMontbaston · 18/10/2014 22:28

Ok, that's odd. Confused

I clicked on this thread thinking I had posted that post at about half twelve this morning, just after I got on the train. It must have not gone through and it's posted now. Sorry for incomprehensibility - it was to vezzie earlier this morning.

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived · 18/10/2014 22:31

Oh, and I agree with Jeanne. I have screamed at my kids plenty. Usually after a long night, a long day of bickering and failure to follow instructions. It isn't great, but it isn't unusual either. I think the biggest thing is to apologise for inappropriate yelling. I try and make a point of saying "I am sorry Mummy screamed at you. I was frustrated and angry because you were refusing to clean your teeth. It has been a long day and Mummy is very tired. You should listen to my instsructions but that's no excuse for shouting. I'm sorry."

Though I have to admit that there are times even that doesn't happen. We're only human.

StormyBrid · 18/10/2014 22:32

Further conversation with DP this evening went surprisingly well. Far less of the point-scoring that occurs when you're debating something theoretical, and he was listening and engaging. And he later actually started reading the thread about feminist fathers I'd left open. Progress! And decreased heart rate, which is always a bonus.

StormyBrid · 18/10/2014 22:33

Argh, bit of a crosspost there, the app's being a bit weird about updating at the moment...

BecauseIsaidS0 · 19/10/2014 07:53

Morning, ladies. I've been MIA because there's been tons of drama in my life this week and I could only muster enough strength to make silly comments on the X Factor thread.

vezzie made me laugh with her description of juniors who expect their female manager to be their servant. That happened to me with a millennial I had last year! He took the piss until one day shit really needed to get done and I started spouting code (I work in IT) and he was so shocked that, you know, I can actually do it, that he gained some reluctant respect for me.

Also, someone above mentioned academia being arranged to favour a certain kind and the rest have to fight for scraps. Absolutely, and it happens elsewhere too. I used to work for a very well known corporation (lately for all the wrong reasons) and they kept claiming that they were a meritocracy, yet if your face didn't fit you were absolutely screwed. I left when they blatantly favoured a female colleague that was doing work of quality a bit lower than my own, but she was white, British, and flirted mildly with them.

UnwittingAccomplice · 19/10/2014 08:17

Oh yes, my company claims we have a meritocracy as well. Ha ha ha. So the fact that only 30% of senior management is female, and very senior management (exec Board, country heads etc) is almost exclusively male - that's because women are a bit shit and unambitious is it?

A meritocracy is only so if everyone has an equal chance to prove their merit. It's not just judging everyone on the same basis.

YonicScrewdriver · 19/10/2014 10:52

"A meritocracy is only so if everyone has an equal chance to prove their merit. "

Yup.

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StormyBrid · 19/10/2014 13:04

Thank you Penguins and Zazzles, you've explained in much better words what I was trying to get across to DP yesterday. I may end up pinching your words to try and help my explanation, but thankfully I think he gets it a bit more now. This in particular: many small actions lead to much bigger things - I want DD to be healthy, happy, and successful in her endeavours, yes, but I want that for her children too, and their children and so on, and just learning how best to navigate the status quo won't help my great great great grand-daughters much, will it?

vezzie · 20/10/2014 09:42

DemisRoussos, I hesitate to ask this as you said "I don't like to think about it too much" but every since you posted about your situation some time ago I have been so curious about how things eventually worked out for you, how you feel about what you do now, and any advice you can give me. Please ignore if these are difficult questions for you.

What really struck me was your sentence "it became all about my mental health [and not about the other behaviour around you]". This really resonates with me because to the extent that my DP acknowledges we have any problems, he thinks the first stage of any solution is that we should go to the dr.

But I am so uneasy with our situation being framed in this way because

  • first off I don't think GPs are usually much good at the sort of things that are wrong with me (except asthma. They can treat that well enough, barring repeated administrative fuck ups)
  • I am very uneasy with the model that I get taken to the dr by dp who wants to come to the appointment and explain all the ways I am defective (my words obv, not his)
  • If I did think that a good starting point was for me to appeal for help with my health, I do not want him present anyway because his outrage at certain sorts of discourse would prevent honesty in the consultation and I would meekly play my part of the defective person (I have experience of this, I have experience of my willingness to admit I am not perfect and have problems being parlayed into a dynamic where I am a problem and DP is a noble sufferer of my defects)
vezzie · 20/10/2014 09:44

I was really horrible to dp yesterday and he is not talking to me again. I stood outside a closed door and said horrible things (because he flounced off and slammed the door, instead of going out which we were about to do, when I asked him to stop moving stuff around for no reason without putting it in a sensible place where I might be able to find it)

MrsBuffyCockhead · 20/10/2014 10:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsBuffyCockhead · 20/10/2014 10:18

This reply has been deleted

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UptoapointLordCopper · 20/10/2014 11:33

vezzie Flowers

vezzie · 20/10/2014 11:41

Thank you Buffy and LordCopper
Sorry to start your week by moaning at you. Have a good day everyone

YonicScrewdriver · 20/10/2014 12:50

Why would he come with you to Gp? Why would he think he has that "right"?

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vezzie · 20/10/2014 13:26

I don't think he sees it as a right at all. I think in his head he would be supporting me to try and sort out my ishoos.

I feel as if everyone is getting a very partisan view of things at the moment which is a bit unfair. I would bet money that he does, for instance, more regular childcare than 90% of the fathers of mumsnetters' children. The issue isn't with him being bad and bombastic and Traditional Patriarch. The issue is that he doesn't support me and doesn't even understand what that support would look like, because he doesn't listen and gets very upset by this issue and will do anything to stop that conversation happening.

DemisRoussos · 20/10/2014 14:21

vezzie, I'd say in many ways I am much happier now than I was a few years back. I had received treatment for MH ishoos on and off for some time prior to the very difficult period I described to you so MH was a contributory factor in how I reacted to the situation, but not the root cause. However, mental illness is so complicated. As many people who are much cleverer than me have written at length, the problematic 'mentally ill' vs. 'not mentally ill' binary that exists, the need to put people on pre-defined health pathways and the medicalisation of social problems (and the resultant emphasis on the individual to fix a personal deficiency rather than finding a collective, social solution to a common problem) creates major issues. I found that my treatment left me doubting myself all the time, questioning whether I was 'right' to be upset about things (or just ill), whether my standards and expectations were reasonable (or a product of 'my illness') etc etc.

Giving up paid work has enabled me to take the time to really think about what is important to me, what kind of person I want to be, to regain some control over my life (which seems counter-intuitive since having kids is so much about relinquishing control and changing identity). My job didn't leave much time for anything else so being able to read and think has been enormously beneficial. I have had DC2 and DC3 in this period so it hasn't been all navel-gazing! And I'm at uni again, which I wouldn't have been able to do if still working or a lone parent. But I am undoubtedly in a vulnerable position professionally and financially. What is more painful is the way I am treated by members of my extended family/community like I am brain-dead, like as a SAHM I have no value and am of no interest.

In practical terms, when I left my job I stripped away everything (except DC1/house) and then gradually built up external commitments, shifting over a bit of domestic responsibility to DH each time I took something on. It has been a slow and frustrating process, but things have improved enormously. I now have a full-time study schedule (tho based at home), various side projects and roles on a few committees so my 'work' hours are actually greater than DH. The expectation that DH will adapt his work schedule to accommodate my commitments is growing and growing. I intend to be either back at work or studying full-time at a brick uni this time next year so kids/house have to be 50-50 (or him doing more than me) by then. He knows this and verbally supports the plan.

I keep thinking about the idea of not just wanting equality, but wanting justice. On my good days when I'm feeling confident, I think "I've served my time, its my turn now". So if that means spending household money on training, as an example, I'm not going to feel bad about that as I deserve some investment as compensation for what I have given up for the family.

I believe that DH cares deeply for me. He says he is very supportive of my aspirations but this doesn't always translate into action, which is the crux of the matter. There is much of real value in our relationship so it seems worth persevering and putting in the necessary effort to make it work.

DemisRoussos · 20/10/2014 14:27

Oh and we're almost at 50-50 in terms of physical labour, it's the mental work of planning and me being responsible for everything that is proving to be most difficult to change.

FuckOffFerret · 20/10/2014 19:14

Can I pop in for a mini rant about housing? We are looking for a place to rent and many of the available homes say "no children/ no housing benefit".

Surely the vast majority of single parents are women? And since women on the whole make less money and have the children that they have to pay for, they are more likely to also be receiving housing benefit?

So isn't it horribly sexist that women who are already struggling are going to be legally discriminated against? I really struggle to find any places that won't accept one or the other.

vezzie · 20/10/2014 22:36

That is a really good point, FFF. It ties in with the whole ideological compulsion to make it very hard for women with children to be independent of (potentially abusive) men.

Are you looking for a place now? Best of luck.

Thankyou all for the really nice posts, especially Buffy - I really appreciate your very thoughtful posts today. I am feeling a lot calmer now. DP and I had a good chat and he is really very kind. We do struggle to communicate but honestly he doesn't want it to be like this. Somehow between us we have to learn how to be where we both want to be.

I missed my darlings again late at work and went into their room to kiss them. Like an idiot, I stroked dd2 (waking her slightly) at the same time as saying "good night my darling, sleepytime". She nodded repeatedly. Her little brain was saying "YES I KNOW IT IS SLEEPY TIME THAT IS WHY I AM ASLEEP WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT"

vezzie · 20/10/2014 22:57

This has slightly blown my mind

www.goodnet.org/articles/this-what-500-years-female-portraits-in-under-3-minutes-looks-like-video

Incredibly creepy. 500 years of women assimilated into one entity of eternal being-looked-at.
can't explain how I feel about this and why it is raising my hackles so much

or at least, maybe I will try, tomorrow

PuffinsAreFicticious · 20/10/2014 23:05

Careful FoF, or you'll have people coming to the pub to tell you that their insurance won't cover it and no one owes you a place to live. Maslow must be turning in his grave! It's so hard now unless your DH is made redundant and you get a good payout, you have family money or you were lucky enough to have got on to the property ladder 20 odd years ago. Have you spoken to your council to see if they have a list of more reasonable landlords? Or a council house? Or Shelter?

PumpkinGordino · 21/10/2014 03:30

It is within mortgage terms or insurance I think (HB, not children), but I think that's dreadful in itself. Because it just means that the discrimination goes higher and wider

And the no children, wtf. Especially if you're talking about more than 1 bedroom. It's like people have forgotten the whole point of housing

PumpkinGordino · 21/10/2014 03:35

Vezzie hope you're feeling better tomorrow (today? Not sure, can't sleep)

That video is weird. All white faces too. What is it for?