Feminist pub no 12: The Bluestocking Returns, this time with goats!

[YonicScrewdriver]

Welcome!

DP's just asked me if I'd rather DD grew up fighting the system, or learning how to work within it. It's not really an either/or, is it? And based on people's experiences here, she'll get further, and be a lot better off mentally, if she grows up able to recognise that societal structures are working against her, and she isn't personally to blame if those structures hold her back. Anyone have any thoughts on his initial question? No rush to respond as the conversation is on hold until after toddler bedtime. Mainly because she gets distressed when she hears such conversations, and I suspect that's because they sound a bit antagonistic. They certainly feel it to me, and that's immensely frustrating because I know it's down to socialisation. I physically react in such conversations - raised heartbeat and whatnot - and he doesn't, because it's all just academic to him.

no, it's not an either or.

Hugs to you Stormy, I know what you mean on the raised heart beat etc.

It doesn't really matter what I think is the best way as I don't have to raise your child with you. but I hope you work it out with your DP later.

vezzie Thu 16-Apr-09 01:12:19
I wish I had left 3 men much sooner. It was up to me of course but I also wish someone had told me to. People tend to be very sensitive and courteous about other people's relationships. Sometimes it is ok and right to say "leave him". Sometimes they said afterwards "thank god you finally left him" and I thought, "now you tell me!"

It has been both fascinating and depressing reading about how differently men and women are mentored. Thinking back, I can't recall receiving any kind of mentoring during my (very brief) academic career.

The whole thing about male students assuming I was younger and more junior than I really was resonates. I had one final year undergrad who didn't bother learning the names of the female post docs in the lab - he just addressed us all as babe . None of our male colleagues pulled him up on it.

Reading about your experiences has also made me realise how lucky I am in my present job. I have a very strong female manager as a mentor. She has clearly made her way to where she is the hard way (by working twice as hard as her male contemporaries and sacrificing her personal life in doing so). She is determined that those of us starting out in the department shouldn't have to make the same sacrifices. She is very supportive of flexible working for everyone (male or female). In fact many of the men on her site work part time so that they can spend time with their young children. We also have a colleague who was very badly injured in a car accident. This manager has ensured that she kept her job and can work whenever she is well enough to do so.

Vezzie That all sounds really, really hard to deal with. Fwiw, my dp has dropped down to 4 days and I actually really like it. He does the laundry, the weekly shop and pretty much all of the cooking on that day. The difference is, he doesn't have any issues with me telling him how things need to be done, so I never have to be surreptitious about rewashing substandard laundry, it doesn't cause a row, he listens to why I need it rewashed and does it differently next time.

My dp doesn't drive either so he doesn't do any of the car stuff but I've resolved that by finding a great garage near work where I drop the car off on my way to work and collect it on the way home. Dp facilitates that by doing the cm run those days so I can leave earlier and come home later.

I also know that dp would never want to be primary carer of dd2. So in my fantasies of leaving him I keep the dcs and the house while he moves out to a smaller flat.

It sounds as if a lot of your issues are with communication, and they don't sound ad if its you with the problem communicating, other people aren't listening or they are talking to you without thinking about what they're saying or why they're saying it.

Btw, I once made dd1 so afraid of me that she hid under her bed for ages. Not ideal, but stress gets the better of all of us at times.

Stormy, I don't think it's an either or thing. My reply would be something about wanting her to understand the system so she can decide for herself whether it's worth the fight.

Vezzie just on the "robust" thing, this resonates with me so much

I have had therapy for various issues and one thing the therapist picked up on was my beration of myself for not being "robust" enough. I should be able to roll with the punches (metaphorical) and outwardly, I do. But every time I do it's a chip chip chip away as I realise that I'm just faking it and in reality these things affect me very deeply. But rather than acknowledging that I increase the self-blame and feel that the fact I have to fake it is yet another personal failing.

I adore my mother and she is wonderfully supportive in so many ways. And she is a tower of strength hiding a million vulnerabilities and I didn't recognise that until a few years ago. I tried to match up to her example, and I couldn't, and I never knew it was because she was faking it too that I would never be able to do so.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here, but really something along the lines of this idea of "robustness" as the ideal, it can perpetuate the pain and feelings of failure in itself

And then if you are strong and robust, twatchopsters "joke" about you being male:

(Russian coach and "Williams brothers" joke.)

m.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/29672340

[flower] Vezzie - we all have moments where it gets too much, it doesn't make you an awful person, you're just human.

Damn it!

Yonic - I read that earlier. A joke my *!

Because of course, if a woman is not petite and slender, she is "manly".

I'm tall - very tall - well over 6ft. I've been told to my face, that it must be horrible being so tall, as there's nothing feminine about it. "Tallness if a very masculine trait," the person said.

Gee thanks.

Fucking hell vezzie, your situation sounds horrible. Your 'D'P comes across as useless. I presume he isn't...

I think it was Buffy who said she constantly questions whether she's good enough. I do this too and it's soul destroying and self defeating, but I can't figure out how to stop it.

You'll like this one: I was round an exes house the other day. She was waiting in to have fibre broadband installed. He arrived and asked me where to drill through to put the cable. I laughed and said "nowt to do with me mate, it's her house. We're not a couple." To be fair on the poor chap we do banter and bicker like a couple, so to outsiders it can look like we are one. :o

While looking for CE stuff on BBC sport I noticed an article about Shelley Kerr, who's now famous for managing a men's uni football team. Cause the fact she led women's arsenal to win their own FA cup is just a minor side note now she's in the big leagues of men's football.

'Scuse me while I throw things.

She was also quite deprecating about having run Arsenal Women, something along the lines of women being 'difficult'

Must be 'difficult' to be good enough to win a cup but know its going to be treated as a special interest/fluff piece filler news story bec and no one cares about women's football.

Vezzie, have you cloned my DH? Your DH sounds identical, right down to the cackhanded laundry and not driving. The only thing that isn't the same us that my DH hasn't attempted to paint any walls (yet), though he's ruined a few by craply putting in fixed stairgates and was looking at paint pot samples the other day so it can only be a matter of time :(

Seriously, PM me if you need a chat, it sounds like we have very similar lives.

AskBasil I've been dwelling on the mentoring issue and I completely agree that there is a complete failure of men to see all the ways in which women get a subtly different (worse) deal, and how all of the tiny everyday small inequalities add up to big disadvantages over all. And there just isn't enough of a corresponding female mentoring effect to make a difference - party because in male-dominated sectors (like academia, IT etc.) a good chunk of the women there act as handmaidens to it. I was a couple of weeks ago when one of my female colleagues, who manages several hundred people, described "feminists in the workplace" as "always so aggressive". It makes me really despair at how we can effect any change when even other women can refuse to see how the everyday terms and discourse of work are weighted against women.

I think that Shelley Kerr managing a mens team is big news hoppy. She's not the first, that's probably Helena Costa, coach to Clermont FC. But she is the first female coach to a senior male team in the UK. I remember when Keith Alexander, who I idolised when he was a player, even though he often played against my team, was named as Lincoln manager, becoming the first black manager in this country. Even though he's sadly dead he's a well known figure amongst fans of football and is much loved and respected. I'm pretty sure the same will be with Shelley, especially judging by the response of her players who all seem to respect her and her methods.

I'd love the next England Womens manager to be either Kelly Smith or Casey Stoner, both great footballers and role models.

Bollocks. Casey Stoney, not Stoner. One's a great footballer, t'other's the only man who can ride a Ducati MotoGP bike. Sorry.

That is very middle-class mumsy behaviour Buffy. I don't drink much but when I do I just giggle a lot and persuade dp to come to bed with me, where i promptly fall asleep leaving him bemused about why he needed to be there

Hello! I've been out and have had quite a few and all I do is get a headache. Still, it's better to have your hangover over and done with. Having a nice hot cup of now.

Sorry to hear people having a shit time.

Stormy's question: is there an option to work "within the system"? All these posts. All about how working "within the system" is not that great for women. Surely. No option but fight. Not a placid drunk ...

Stormy - A while back now, but you asked about "DP's just asked me if I'd rather DD grew up fighting the system, or learning how to work within it"

A few random thoughts assuming the system we're talking about is patriarchy and sexism:

• That is the kind of disinterested question you can only ask if that system has never impacted upon you in any meaningful way. It suggests that the system isn't a massively serious thing too. I wonder if he'd asks the same question of racism?

-It also betrays a bit of an assumption that 'the system' is just something you can work around and everything will be alright. That isn't the way it works really is it. As a lot of the stories women are telling on here illustrate. All the career stories are at least partly people trying to work within the system. It ain't working.

• To 'game' a system, you need to know and understand it. Leaving aside that it would take a lifetime (or three dozen) to teach a child all that (assuming you knew yourself), once you've taught a child about injustice, do you really want to raise the type of child who then keeps their head down and never tries to make anything better?

-If everyone just keeps their head down and does their best, nothing gets better. That's often what women do actually, until the time they have children. When they realise that they want their child's life to be better than theirs. Isn't that a key thing of what parenting is? So teaching your child to play the system may only work for a while anyway.

• You can do both.

Vezzie - So sorry to hear about all of this. All I can think of to say is that, if you need fantasies of splitting, at some point you could well reach the point where you want that to happen in reality. And if you think he could want the children to live with him, and you don't want that, you are utterly, utterly right not to do anything which bolsters his case to be seen as primary carer.

Vezzie I agree with Penguins about possibly reaching a point where you will really want to split. Although, I believe that the courts prefer to share care as close to 50/50 as possible if you need them to arbitrate. Do have a long think about whether this relationship makes your life better or worse than it would be if you were single. Sometimes we fantasise about things because they're what we really want.

You can do both.

I am with Penguins on this. It is possible to teach your children to be aware of the inequalities that women face, and then to pick and choose the particular situations where they feel they can make a difference, and to also allow to slide those situations they cannot possibly win at. They do not have to go through life simply accepting the status quo, trying to make themselves invisible to whatever is going on in their at that time point.

The first thing required though, is a consciousness or awareness that these inequalities are occurring - some people either willfully or unconsciously make themselves blind to certain situations, and in regards to feminism, there are many, many men who sit in that category. Some of these can have their heads turned and their perceptions changed, but it is a uniquely human trait that we can refuse to 'see' something if we so wish. How you get someone to change their perceptions of something is a whole topic on its own.

Next is a realisation of the battles that you (personally) can win, and the battles that you cannot win. For example, I talked about challenging a man (I have to work closely, and have regular interaction with), who clearly didn't do the cleaning in his own home, but I knew if I approached this in a calm and simple manner, I could 'win' this particular battle. A battle I may not be able to win (at least at this time point), is the sexist views of the CEO of the company (which I mentioned upthread), because being new to the company and not working with the CEO at all at this point, I don't think I can influence him one jot. However, my time will come on that one as well .

And these are not just isolated incidents in time, these small wins I am having are a progression of events where I am working to change the perceptions of people around me on how women should live their lives. As I have posted elsewhere, I am a big believer that many, many small actions lead to much bigger things.

And Vezzie, I am sorry that you are having such a shit time - it appears to me that you have been made the default 'adult/parent' in the relationships you have described with your work and your H. They keep defaulting on their responsibilities to you, and somehow expect you to just be 'ok' with that, like a child does with a parent.