Dave Lee Travis

[limitedperiodonly]

He didn't get it, did he?

My personal view is that a suspended sentence was in order for the level of the assault and the fact that he has no other convictions.

But that speech on the steps of the court moved me to touch him, and not in a touchy-feely kind of way.

I see where you're coming from, but, the kind of person who won't listen to the stories and women's everyday lived experience might sit up and take note if those women take it to court and a judge and jury listens to them.

The sad thing is that this IS women's common experience. Women experience this every day.

Elephants, the Everyday Sexism site is good for hearing stories repeated over and over.

I don't understand your point, really. The details of the event are what make it a sexual assault and the court needs to know them. Max Clifford forced someone to perform oral sex on him. How is it distracting that he's been found guilty for that?

Plus: I think the "not alone" thing is achieved by high profile cases - look at Vanessa Feltz telling her Rolf Harris story once she knew she was not alone, and many many less famous Savile victims coming forward too.

I find the " Only by hearing from their mothers, wives and daughters are men going to realise how much of this goes on and how much it hurts" thing a bit problematic. Court cases should be tried on their evidence and aginst the laws that stood at the time of their committance. And people should be treated as fully human at all times. That stuff happens to their nearest and dearest shouldn't make these incidents a lightbulb moment, however personally distressing they are. They shouldn't happen to anyone's nearest and dearest. That the existence of such (in relation to those close to them) should influence an on-line commentator, a jury or a perpertrator is a bit disturbing to me.

I absolutely agree with women sharing experiences. Not for the benefit of men, though.

Utterly bloody arrogant and not a scrap of remorse at what he'd done. Completely agree he just doesn't see he has behaved disgracefully.

I understand there are men who are a bit too touchy feely for some women but who don't grope in a sexual way. They would be mortified if they were called sex pests but would stop the behaviour and feel sorry they made someone uncomfortable.

DLT doesn't fall into that categorically. He felt he was entitled by his famous status to treat women like objects for his sexual gratification. He was a serial sex pest. I used to like him but now loathe the arrogant detestable prat.

The people complaining about poor old DLT seem to be carefully overlooking that there was a string of complaints against him. They are acting as if he did one thing once and that was what went to court and what an over-reaction. When in fact the CPS had a string of complaints, more than one of which they felt had enough evidence to go to court.

Slightly different than how it's apparently beign represented.

Also, should tit groping be legal? REALLY? Of course it fucking shouldn't. If we legalise things that people consider "low level" (what people think that hmmmmm is a good question) then you open the doors for stacks of sexual abuse and you "downgrade" more serious offences. Because if it's no problem to feel someone's tits on the high street then why should they get offended by a quick grope up the skirt? etc.

Fucking stupid people.

The "nearest and dearest" argument makes me uncomfortable because it can very easily render the experiences of women with no close male acquaintances invalid. I want men to be disgusted by casual sexual assault because all women are human beings who should be afforded respect, not because they suddenly realise that their own personal women are at risk.

yeah but how often do we hear on fwr, and elsewhere, oh I'd love to be treated like a sex object, oooh I wish I'd get a bit more groping! what with them being hilarious and all. It is a different dynamic and a lot of the eejits who think like this just don't have the empathy to realise it may feel different, frightening or humiliating to someone else.
Against this sort of fool, the whole 'If it was your daughter' trope may be effective.

I've not ever seen people saying the want to be groped

I've seen women saying they don't mind / quite like people whistled at or had "morning darling" type comments made to them. And I've seen women say that they wouldn't be too fussed over a pinch on the bum.

I don't really understand.

The "if it was your daughter" thing is for men. Women who are comfortable with randoms feeling them up aren't going to be swayed by "if it was your daughter" as they were once that age and had it happen to them and they were fine with it IYSWIM.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a woman saying more sexual assault please.

Fucking stupid people, may be, but we all put a personal hierarchy on this sort of thing (women shouldn't have to, but they do). That hierarchy is based on our personal experiences and our reaction to those experiences.

Had I needed the job I lost because I refused to sleep with my boss to pay the rent. I'd have felt very differently to the 19yo living with parents who could afford to look after her, did.

Is a suspended sentence actually worse than a community service order? DLT basically gets to walk away without any real punishment (other than the obvious reputation all damage). Is that pretty much it?

If he doesn't get reported again, that's it. So, he just has to keep his hands to himself (or not commit any other crime) for the period of his sentence and it's all over. You know, like most other men do as a matter of course. I bet he'll be livid about that. He seems like an angry man.

He is an angry man. He has always had a reputation as an angry man. It was a running joke.

Stupid example, but he used to do a pop quiz thing. Used to get really pissed off if people got things wrong, or said hi to friends, or had the radio near the phone so it made stupid noises. Noel Edmonds yes, yes, I know tricked him for a TV show he did. He was livid. Really cross. Most people were good sports, him not.

Horrible horrible man.

I have seen it Seven, guys scoffing at the notion that women don't want to be groped by insisting that they, personally would love to be felt up by a random (attractive natch) woman. I didn't make it clear I was referring to men though - sorry.

Ah sorry yes because you mentioned FWR I thought you meant women were saying it!

Agree that many men go har har I'd love to have a woman feeling my arse in a club.

The answer of course is how would you feel if the person doing the feeling was a man twice your size and he wasn't looking particularly benevolent.

But they don't like it when you say that.

Is a suspended sentence actually worse than a community service order? DLT basically gets to walk away without any real punishment (other than the obvious reputation all damage). Is that pretty much it?

It doesn't really matter beyond arguing about angels on pinheads. Times have changed and finally the Establishment is reluctantly willing to acknowledge that some of the abuses of power that were going on as recently as 1995 were sexual assault.

It's good that the message goes out to scum like DLT and DLT-wannabees that behaviour like that will see you in court, and possible in jail. Fucking cunt.

Nope, they don't Seven. I am just under 5 foot myself, tbh a lot of the time they have the grace to look a bit uncomfortable.

Things are moving in the right direction though. The male perspective isn't still the only real one. So that's great news for our great (x 5) granddaughters.

I'm actually sort of glad he blustered on the courtroom steps - it really demonstrates to the world what a total fucking creep he is.

I hope he finds it hard to get a table in a restaurant, that people look askance at him in the supermarket and that people move away from him in the pub. I want him to be a total social pariah. I hope this conviction ruins his remaining miserable days.

(off topic but why is the url of this thread Dave-Lee-Travis#prettyPhoto ?)

A suspended sentence means acting like what I hope the majority of men act like for a period of time and then sentence served.

What kind of sentence is that?

I hope his remaining days are lonely because no-one will go near him.

Times haven't changed, in a sense. His crime was always a crime. What has changed has the appartus around that crime. I will always counter rape myths when I see/hear them because the CPS only bring a case when they see a reasonable chance of conviction. And part of that is second guessing what a jury will consider beyond reasonable doubt. And when it is accepted that reasonable doubt is really reasonable doubt, rather than that steeped in rape myths, we will have a fair justice system. And I won't belive that's the case until we no longer have brutal stranger rape cases being defended and accepted on the issue of consent, for example.

Oh, for a mega Euromillions win. Civil court for victims, here we come. Am armed with the "only out for compensation" arguments already.

The comments about employers being made reluctant to employ women are stupid. If the world was fair employers would be more reluctant to employ men because men are more likely to assault or attack other members of staff. It's not a woman who beheaded and stabbed her colleagues this week is it? It's not women who regularly shoot their workmates after they get the sack.

As for the criticism of Camilla Long, one has to remember the power imbalance when these things happen. Can you imagine being a young, female reporter and having to tell your editor that you walked out of the interview that is meant to be appearing in tomorrow's paper? Can you imagine getting the reputation of being the journalist too sensitive and unreliable to interview men? I doubt her honesty about DLT has helped her career.

Yy Nick.

I find it depressing that a 'respectable', successful woman, perceived as having nothing to gain, had to come forward in order to secure a conviction against DLT. I have the utmost admiration for her that she felt compelled to speak out after seeing the credibility of his other victims being trashed.

Good for her