At last! A male feminist...

[Scarletohello]

This kind of thing is just so rare I felt I had to share it. Curious to know what you think of it. He certainly seems genuine...

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/being-a-feminist-is-a-nobrainer-for-me--why-cant-it-be-for-all-men-9753410.html

Sleep well Pacific. Not seen you in pub for a while, pop in some time for a

quite a pleasant de-rail, imo, but one nonetheless...

See you in the pub soon x.

I enjoy those sort of derails, personally

I don't seem to contribute much, mind

The only unpleasant bit about the de-rail was the bit we seemed to lose about the actual role that men can/should play in the furtherance of womens rights.

oh, hang on a minute...that was the point of the OP.

actually that was your point pan, not the OP's - she just shared the article

it would be good to know what he specifically is doing to "move over" for the benefit of women, but the point of this particular piece seems to be to garner sign-ups to heforshe. whether that is worthwhile or not, we have yet to see, but it has good intentions despite the dodgy tag.

i guess it rather depends on what one's measurement of "success" is in terms of activities undertaken by men in support of feminism

Well, it's a derivative isn't it, PG? And that wasn't my only point, if I may say, actually?
tbh that piece could have been written circa 1986, re men 'sign up' for resistance against the David Alton Abortion Bill, with slight changes in emphasis. But yes, it does depend on what one considers "success" re womens rights, indeed. I'm really rather sceptical about this initiative's effectiveness. Though it sounds nice.

I am finding this board to be increasingly about gas lighting people. It never used to be like this and I don't know why it has become like this.

Of course murder, in many contexts, is objectively wrong.

Objective doesn't mean the same thing as absolute or not socially constructed or independent of context.

I am finding this board to be increasingly about gas lighting people. It never used to be like this and I don't know why it has become like this.

I don't follow, sorry. Can you explain?

It is across multiple threads. The Fallon Fox thread being an example I cannot even summon up the energy to challenge. Gas lighting - surely approximately the idea that people tell you that things are not really happening when they are really happening. All this everything is subjective, other people have equally valid realities to you etc is gas lighting. How can anything be really happening to a person if it is all subjective or relative?

Quite apart from that, if the basic requirement to be accepted as a feminist (or indeed committed to any kind of rights and fair treatment for anyone) is that you must accept you have some kind of privilege, then there are going to be few feminists left. It never used to be the case that people had to accept that, and all it seems to have done in the US, where the idea has gained more currency, is to create a toxic and aggressive environment. I don't see it actually achieving anything.

I'm sorry my posts on privilege are gas lighting almondcakes. That's not my intention. I do genuinely feel as I have described, but perhaps this wasn't the right thread to talk about that and it has derailed it.

Sorry Manly. My understanding is that, if something is to be described as objective, it has to be accepted across cultures. AFAIA, moral norms vary from culture to culture and always have and so can't be described as truly objective.

I wasn't attempting to gaslight anyone.

No, that isn't what objective means in moral philosophy.

And even if it was, I've done a million and one things in my life without people constantly leaping up to say that the existence of dogs or whatever is subjective. But when it comes to women's rights, suddenly everything is.

I don't think that what went on here was gas lighting, just a distraction.
The content of which I would actually rather enjoy discussing (I often think I'd like to know more about philosophy), but it side tracked from the issue raised in the OP.

I don't think it is one poster or one particular thread. It is across the board as a whole.

I do think it is gaslighting. I don't know why somebody else feeling something or seeing the world in a particular way makes their perspective somehow legitimate or to be respected.

Maybe someone on here (any of us) is right or maybe they are wrong. But feeling or seeing things in a particular way is not a justification for them.

And I've changed my mind on many things in the last thirty years and no doubt will continue to do so.

I've slept on this now, and while I still apologise that you feel you have been gaslighted, I can't agree. I also don't agree with your stance on objectivity.

While it would be lovely for morals to be objective, and certainly easier to impose on others, they aren't. Morals change and are fluid according to the social norms of the time and culture. Equality between the sexes is not a moral issue, for me, it is a social imperative.

Anyway, over to far more knowledgable people than I on the subject. A few ethics lectures probably doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to this sort of thing, and the best thing about this board is the constant learning experience. Well, that, and the virtual companionship of some amazing women.

the ethics questions are beyond my expertise. it upsets me to know that i have contributed to someone feeling gaslighted, and i will have to consider that in my future posts

I think gaslighting is a very strong word to use for people posting what they genuinely feel.

For me it implies a deliberate attempt to undermine someone's objective reality.

I don't think pointing out that morals are not objective because of a, b and c, is doing that and I don't think the posters who were discussing that, were trying to do that.

Don't know if that helps or jsut muddies the waters.

Lots of people saying and doing terrible things genuinely feel that they are right.

Are we now only objecting to people behaving in certain ways if we think their feelings aren't genuine?

AnyFucker "then carry on chipping away at it in your own way, whilst accepting that you benefit from it every day

it's possible to do both"

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I feel a pang of guilt from being a member an unfairly priviledged group (which is probably why I'm here). I don't however feel guilty for the actions of other men (or other white people, or other British, or other people in their 30's, etc). That's on them.

I'm not going to rehash the objectivism arguments Puffins. Dancing bear has attempted to explain it and done a reasonable job. I don't use objectivism as a form of morality myself, but it is a very common and useful form of moral decision making used by many people.

Lots of feminists are consequentialists, a form of objectivism.

I'm glad you're not going to rehash it.

Just out of interest, what terrible things are being said? You've been oblique in your criticism in several posts now, despite genuine enquiries into your problems with the ways you believe you are being gaslighted.

I think it was clear in my post that I did not mean terrible things on this board, when I replied to Basil.

I gave the Fallon Fox thread as an example of denying reality, other people's feelings etc type of argument. I consider it gaslighting and such arguments are being used more and more frequently on this board.