At last! A male feminist...

[Scarletohello]

This kind of thing is just so rare I felt I had to share it. Curious to know what you think of it. He certainly seems genuine...

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/being-a-feminist-is-a-nobrainer-for-me--why-cant-it-be-for-all-men-9753410.html

specialsubject, elaborate, please?

indeed anyfucker, i expect it was selected for its hashtag potential, so y'know...

perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word. or perhaps it's the right word, but a different sort of guilt to that of the direct perpetrator. i don't know. but yes, an uncomfortable feeling that i shouldn't take my advantages for granted, and that many of them haven't come to me because i'm marvellous or because i've worked especially hard or because i deserve them above someone else necessarily. (though some have i hope)

sorry, x[post on the hashtag point. we've covered that adequately

You know what petula, I'm sure I read the word guilt in there, but he doesn't actually use it, does he? It may or may not have been a projection on my part. Please don't jump on me, i'm finding this instructive stuff

Nobody is jumping on you, tdb.

tbh i didn't doubt you tdb, but i did a ctrl+F to find the relevant paragraph and couldn't. i expect it's an extension of "ashamed" - there are differences in meaning (i think) but it's still a reasonable synonym

perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word. or perhaps it's the right word, but a different sort of guilt to that of the direct perpetrator. i don't know. but yes, an uncomfortable feeling that i shouldn't take my advantages for granted, and that many of them haven't come to me because i'm marvellous or because i've worked especially hard or because i deserve them above someone else necessarily. (though some have i hope)

100% this, except that I'm feeling more positive that what you're describing isn't guilt. There's probably a word for it in German or Finnish or something.

FWIW I don't think 'shame' is the right word either (and the writer does use that)

Max er ... that would be an ecumenical matter

Ok, I get it now, thanks Max - so as stated above, morals are not objective

Where do the religious reference keep coming from?

is the religious thing something to do with the fact that western morals are all thought to be based on religious ones (including Kant who was christian)

please someone correct me if i've made a fool of myself

"would you not agree that murder and rape are objectively wrong rather than a matter of opinion"

No I would not.

Things depend very strongly on how you are defining those things, for a start. For example, in the UK, it was not considered rape to, well, rape, if the person you raped was your wife, up until distressingly recently. Every day there are people whining on about "grey areas". Then you have things like execution. Is that murder? Or not? Depends on your perspective. Is it murder if you are provoked enormously? Self defence?

And that's just the first 2 thoughts - I mean there's loads.

I mean come off it. You must be able to think of these things for yourself!

Of course morals aren't objective.

Is this all to detract from the "I've balanced out my tally in my head and I come out AOK" thing?

sorry 8million xposts there

Max, I knew someone was going to say that. There are many living consequentialists and virtue theorists. and some of them are women.

Kant's theory of morality is rooted in religion. It's also nonsense (in the sense that it's impossible to extract a clearly-identifiable theory from it, even a wrong one).

I agree that we're arguing about the meaning of 'objective'.

Things depend very strongly on how you are defining those things, for a start. For example, in the UK, it was not considered rape to, well, rape, if the person you raped was your wife, up until distressingly recently. Every day there are people whining on about "grey areas". Then you have things like execution. Is that murder? Or not? Depends on your perspective. Is it murder if you are provoked enormously? Self defence?

Are you suggesting that it was okay for a man to rape his wife as long as people thought it was okay to do so?

Execution is murder. It's wrong. The majority of people in the world agree with capital punishment. Their opinion is incorrect.

I mean come off it. You must be able to think of these things for yourself!

No need to be patronising.

Huh?

So you get to decide that your own opinions are the ones that are objectively right?

Isn't that what everyone else in the whole world says, irrespective of what their opinions actually are

If you had been alive in a different time or place, you would hold different opinions, which you would believe to be objectively right.

What on earth? I'm not sure I've ever read such a bizarre perspective!

I am a bit lol at this.

Are you taking the piss?

O-kaaay, thread derailed by academic, theoretical pontificating about the meaning of 'objective' and 'morals'

I shall very objectively withdraw to bed