How women act differently in the presence of men

[msrisotto]

This was discussed briefly on a trans thread. I read it a couple of weeks ago and it has played on my mind since.

I'd like it if people could share their experiences of this. Before reading it, I didn't think being in the presence of men changed anything about me and other females but thinking about it more....it does. Examples:

When I have 'the girls' over for dinner or something, I hint heavily that DH goes to the cinema or out to see friends too. He does. Why do I do this? Him being in the house changes the topics we talk about, how raucous we become etc etc

When I spend time with my sister, I try to make it an activity that excludes her husband (and mine tbf). Things are different when he's there, she's different and I assume I am too.

In a work context - I work in a female dominated field. When meetings are female only they are completely different to when there are any men in them. I watch my colleagues (women) look to the men to respond to questions and topics that they are more than qualified to take the lead on themselves. And I always see the men talking over the women.

Have you noticed this?

Is it weird if I feel odd discussing this in a mixed space?

I definitely act very differently in women-only spaces as opposed to mixed ones.

I have some female friends whom men we know tend to think of as spinsterish, nice, polite ladies. When they are in women-only company they are more like characters from a Martin Scorsese movie. The sheer level and imagination of the swearing is unbelievable.

Thinking about things I feel comfortable talking about...

I don't talk about the physical dimension of being female around men.

I don't talk about male violence/history of suffering at the hands of violent men, because in the past men have basically preyed on me using things they've heard and re-enacting them, exploiting the same vulnerabilities.

I don't make eye contact as much.

I don't take off outer layers of clothing.

I don't talk as much in general.

I find I often roll my eyes in my mind at the way men turn the conversation to their own needs when feminism is being discussed.

YYYYY I also read the thread I think you mean, and thought, this whole women's spaces thing, do women really act that much differently? I can't think of a time when I'm in a "women's space" and talk about womanly things that I wouldn't with a man there.

And the very next day in the bogs at work I had a long conversation with a colleague about how awful her menopause symptoms are.

And I thought, OH!

And remembered that in the bogs at work I discuss with colleagues who I know such things as makeup, hair, clothing, health concerns, children, and what random men have said or done that was weird / horrible on the occasions stuff like that happens.

Also when my friends come round sometimes when DH is working in the evening, when he comes home the atmosphere shifts / topics change.

The other thing is being free of the male gaze - twice at feminist conference type things where there were no men / hardly any at all, and when I was heavily pregnant as well I could feel it kind of "lifted". And until I was in those situations I didn't realise that it was there all the time whenever I was in public.

So actually, there's lots, and that thread was great as it made me realise that and how important it is.

What I notice in women-only spaces with other women - when a man arrives they often pay him loads of attention in a sort-of fawning (although perhaps jokey-fawning) way.

I feel it's incredibly important to allow women to experience politicised women-only space. I hadn't experienced it until fairly recently. It's remarkable how different women are when men aren't present.

Lol @ me having in depth discussions about hair.

Not so much actually - but I like to pay compliments to women I know to make them feel good if there is something to comment on and so I do that in the bogs sometimes

They are always super-pleased it's part of my little mission to spread a little love

Next time I am in a mixed meeting vs an all female one (rare) I'm going to check out posture.

I wonder if women are more "demure" for want of a better word when gentlemen are present...

I went to a mixed school but in the sixth form my English class turned out to be female-only (purely by accident, not design). The two teachers we had said it was the best group they had ever taught and they had never seen a class make so much progress. It was the best learning experience I have ever had. Everyone was competitive, but competitive by pushing ourselves to do better, not by doing the next person down and making it hard for them to work, everyone could speak and the atmosphere was respectful, funny and good-natured, and we all used to bring in books, films and articles that we thought would help each other or other people would find interesting. When you can speak without fear of being belittled, shouted down or contradicted just for the sake of an argument, you can really flourish as a person. I think mixed education sacrifices girls for the benefit of boys.

That's been proven - girls do much better in all-girl schools.

The s-level english class at my all-girl high school had some really intense and frank discussions about sexuality among other things that I can't see happening in a mixed group.

Although my english teacher for GCSE in a mixed school was very confident in discussing sex, it was never personal in any way. Which is entirely appropriate given the 16-year-old boys in the room.

I went to an all girls school as well until 16 and had no idea that it was considered very unusual for girls to enjoy & study subjects like Physics.

It was great.

I sit leaning forwards with my legs wide apart and my hands clasped in front of me.

I think it is very normal that we act differently in women-only spaces, isn't it?

This is why they are so important.

I've not seen the thread in question, though, so am utterly bemused about snout transplant comments.

Good thread. Marking my place for when the kids are in bed.

I was at a presentation evening at DD1's (15yo) school. It is a girls school but with boys in the 6th form.

There were about 15 groups; each made a short presentation to the audience. Some were better than others, but they were mostly okay.

There was one group comprising 4 boys and 1 girl. They. Were. Rubbish. Utterly crap. To the extent that I felt angry that they were so underprepared. (This is a selective school, so no question of them doing the best they could - they really hadn't tried.)

But the audience of mostly teenage girls giggled away at them and not in a mocking way.

I was angry that if girls had put on such a rubbish performance, they wouldn't have got away with it, but boys did. I think if the audience had been teenage boys, rather than girls, there would have been lots of jeering at their ineptitude.

I was pleased that DD noticed it. She mentioned it to me, rather than the other way round.

I went to an all girls school for gcse then did my sixth form at a (state) boys school with a minority of girls in the sixth form. I found it really hard to adjust from an environment of healthy competition (albeit with truly shite science teaching) to an environment where the girls were considered superior almost by dint of being female, but after someone was groped on the stairs we were all given a bollocking about dressing more appropriately. We all adjusted our behaviour massively.

Yes I'm comfortable and confident and don't feel judged. No one notices my shoes, my hair, my not wearing make up. No one tries to put me down or gossip about people I've never heard off.

I love male company!

It is amazing how much we avoid certain topics because the men would feel awkward.

I feel less self conscious in female only company, no one is looking at my boobs, I don't have to be careful not to be perceived as flirting, I can be honest about shit in the workplace etc without making them uncomfortable.

do you think it makes a difference online too? so on MN when someone identifies themselves as a man on a thread? it probably depends on the thread topic/section

I think it does make a difference online.

Much of the time, you can tell who's male and who's female on threads where it matters.

There was a study about how much men and women comment on different types of articles and how much their comments attracted 'likes'. I'll try to dig it out.

was it this one LRD? qz.com/259149/how-men-dominate-online-commenting/

Years ago I did a linguistics module that looked at the role of gender in conversation. It was a beginner module so looked at conversations between two people. If a man and a woman spoke the same amount, the woman was perceived as dominating the conversation. For the man to actually be perceived as dominating the conversation the ratio had to be around 70:30. What did I take from that? Shut up a bit in mixed company. Five years of girls school was undone fairly quickly once I had to find my way in the real (read: Masculine) world.

Online -yes! I have to admit, I hate it if I am on a thread on MN and a man chips in ( tho obs with usernames, who knows, bit if eg they refer to DW). strange because in RL and on other forums have male and female friends and do not object to men, but MN feels like a safe/female in-joke environment somehow, and I don't want men here.

Also in my career have often found I made a point in a meeting that was unheard/overlooked - a few mins later same point made by a man and heralded as wisdom
Some years ago teaching mixed class in France, experimented by making sure I kept track of asking male/female questions , and was accused of boys that I was favouring girls - clearly their expectation was that boys would dominate...