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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Depressing report - anal sex in under 18s

358 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/08/2014 17:45

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

The link goes into much more detail but the gist is:

"First, some men's narratives suggested that mutuality and consent for anal sex were not always a priority for them. Interviewees often spoke casually about penetration where women were likely to be hurt or coerced (“you can rip 'em if you try and force anal sex”; “you just keep going till they get fed up and let you do it anyway”), suggesting that not only do they expect coercion to be part of anal sex (in general, even if not for themselves personally), but that many of them accept or at least do not explicitly challenge it. Some events, particularly the ‘accidental’ penetration reported by some interviewees, were ambiguous in terms of whether or not they would be classed as rape (ie, non-consensual penetration), but we know from Jack's interview that ‘accidents’ may happen on purpose.

Second, women being badgered for anal sex appears to be considered normal.

Third, the commonly circulating ideas that ‘everyone’ enjoys it, and that women who do not are either flawed or simply keeping their enjoyment secret, help support the erroneous idea that a man pushing for anal sex is simply ‘persuading’ his partner to do something that ‘most girls would like’. Even Alicia's narrative contains some of the apparently coercive features of anal sex that other women report in negative terms, despite Alicia reporting enjoying anal sex.

Fourth, anal sex today appears to be a marker of (hetero)sexual achievement or experience, particularly for men.18 The society which our interviewees inhabit seems to reward men for sexual experience per se (‘every hole's a goal’) and, to some extent, rewards women for compliance with sexually ‘adventurous’ acts (enjoyment signifying not being naive, unrelaxed, etc), although women must balance this with the risk to their reputation. Women may also be under pressure to appear to enjoy or choose certain sexual practices: Gill describes a ‘postfeminist sensibility’ in contemporary media, where women are expected to present themselves as having chosen behaviours that conform to a stereotype of heterosexual male fantasy.24 The common portrayal of anal heterosex in terms of men breaking women's resistance can be compared with narratives about first vaginal intercourse25 and perhaps have superseded them to some degree in the British context where premarital vaginal intercourse is considered normal and so perhaps less of a ‘conquest’.

Fifth, many men do not express concern about possible pain for women, viewing it as inevitable. Less painful techniques (such as slower penetration) were rarely discussed."

OP posts:
grimbletart · 20/08/2014 22:45

I can't help finding it ironic that the answer to this is apparently sex education and more sex education, when in my old fashioned times when sex education was pretty much non-existent at least we didn't have to worry about anal sex or being 'cool' by doing things we didn't want to do.

So we were (allegedly) repressed - something I would dispute anyway. But given a choice between being thought repressed or prudish or having to deal with what young girls are now apparently having to deal with, let's give three cheers for a bit of repression.

The above is ingenuous of me I freely admit. It is too late now to "unknow" what we, or rather girls and boys have learned.

So it would seem that the only way forward is more of the "education" that I believe has contributed to the problem in the first place.

I am so glad my DDs became adults before this last decade or two. I really do not envy the parents and teachers of today's young adults in the pornified, tawdry and tacky times we are living in. Sad

JustTheRightBullets · 20/08/2014 22:46

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WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 22:47

I find myself rapidly thinking less and less of men. I think most men wouldn't kick a dog but I bet most would love a chance to degrade a woman in bed. I hope it isn't true, but I am starting to feel that way

VeryStressedMum · 20/08/2014 22:52

Definitely wasn't something when I was a teenager, I've never been badgered or asked for anal sex or nor has anyone tried to force it up there!
I have done it with dh and I enjoyed it at the time but only because I trust him totally.
I had to Google rosebudding and holy shit!! Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that!!

AlpacaYourThings · 20/08/2014 22:53

My DH is as horrified as I am about this, his DSis is 18 so this is a very real concern for him.

FloraFox · 20/08/2014 22:56

I don't think I want to google that WhatWitch. [scared]

grimble I can see what you mean. I'm beginning to think that "repression" was a way to discourage behaviour that had serious potential harms. For example, masturbation. If there was no toilet paper, running water, antibacterial soap, antibiotics etc. I sure as hell wouldn't want anybody fiddling with themselves then touching me, my food etc. That's probably why the French invented bidets. Now we've got this idea that just because some thing was considered bad in the past but actually isn't that bad now, everything else is okay too. But it's not.

AliciaBotty · 20/08/2014 22:59

Anyone else angered by that awful tv show and film franchise The Inbetweeners? Constant chat and guffawing about "bashing her back door in" and foul references to girls as nothing but horny holes to be filled. That feeds it all doesn't it? I just read a review of the film in several broadsheets (online) and they describe it as hilarious, although very offensive
The only paper to trash it as horrid and misogynistic was the Daily Mail. But the comments under the article? All along the lines of "Oh get a life, it's just banter, boys have always been like this.

Have they? I went to a mixed school and don't remember anything like this.

Reading this thread I feel very detached from the world suddenly. I really had no idea. Texting photos of genitals? Really? Why???? Is it meant to turn you on? I don't get it. Have they no dignity at all?

Perhaps it will improve? We know that's out there now. We can try to stop them accessing porn. The parents of today's teens got caught out, didn't realise the dreadful possibilities of the Internet and mobile phones. We know. We can educate better. That's ever I'm holding on to anyway.

WhatWitchcraftIsThis · 20/08/2014 23:01

On the sexual hygiene issue flora I wonder how many of these boys are having vaginal sex with girls after they have anally penetrated them?

I can see many 16 year old girls sending their boyfriends to the bathroom to antibac their penises first..

MrsMarigold · 20/08/2014 23:06

Crikey I've read this and am terrified for my children. Back when I was 12 we were told by a very ancient teacher at my school that premarital sex was a mortal sin! I'm 38 and I remember when I was about 20 I heard odd jokes about "brown wings" etc and knew of a guy who was apparently into anal sex but that was it.

Maybe Mumsnet/Woman's Hour should campaign for our children to be taught about consent, grimbletart I agree with you but consent and respect can be taught without having to reveal everything and these lessons start in infancy.

CaptChaos · 20/08/2014 23:17

Lessons about consent start at home. They start with not making your DC kiss grandma if they don't want to. They start with teaching about gentle hands and kind words. They go on to children making choices about their bodies, if they don't want to strip down for a bath, then they bath with clothes on. Treating animals kindly.

By the time children get to school it's almost too late to 'teach them about consent' if they have been taught that their choices around their bodies can be violated in small ways, then what hope have we of teaching them to expect better in big things?

PuppyMouse · 20/08/2014 23:23

Thank you for all the supportive comments.

I think the observations I have made since have been largely around just how naive some guys are about sex. And completely ignorant about the female body. They don't seem to think they need to know?

My first time after that nightmare I was so frightened the guy accused me ("nicely"/patronisingly) of being a virgin. I actually laughed at him after everything that happened to me in that previous relationship. But in his mind because it was difficult and uncomfortable for me I was clearly inexperienced and lying!

I don't know what the answer is but porn is toxic Hmm

AlpacaYourThings · 20/08/2014 23:24

That's an interesting approach, CaptChaos I hated giving aunties and uncles kisses and hugs goodbye as a child. My parents always forced me as it was seen as good manners.

gussiegrips · 21/08/2014 00:29

That's exactly right, when you're tickling a child and they say "no, no, stop it" you have to stop. If you keep going, because you know they are enjoying it and that tickling's fun then you're planting a seed that "no" doesn't need to be listened to.

Teaching about consent extends beyond the classroom and into the antenatal classes, well, you know what I mean. It's a huge and complex issue, but, guidance for parents is utterly absent.

WhentheRed · 21/08/2014 01:40

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PacificDogwood · 21/08/2014 07:59

Lessons about consent start at home. They start with not making your DC kiss grandma if they don't want to. They start with teaching about gentle hands and kind words. They go on to children making choices about their bodies, if they don't want to strip down for a bath, then they bath with clothes on. Treating animals kindly.

That.
Absolutely that.

I too see where you are coming from, grimble, but I personally don't think that repression was in any way helpful. It did cause untold misery for many, but yes, a certain 'innocence' has been lost.
That is why I feel sex education should focus more on relationships, respect, mutual consideration, pleasure etc rather than the mechanics of sex (remember a hilarious biology lesson in the 80s aged ?14-15 when we were shown condoms and how they went on a banana and how much water a tampon could soak up. We were absolutely wheezing with mirth and mortification - I am not sure how much of that changed anybody's sexual behaviour).

BriarRainbowshimmer · 21/08/2014 09:34

That is why I feel sex education should focus more on relationships, respect, mutual consideration, pleasure etc rather than the mechanics of sex

Yes definitely, that is what is needed. A lot of it, to counter porn and misogyny in media.

AliciaBotty · 21/08/2014 09:51

I wish people would stop focusing on consent.

How about abstinence? I'd far rather my daughter simply said no to weird, violent, degrading acts in the bedroom and I hope my son has more respect for himself and any future girlfriends than to suggest it.

Don't most young people know about consent? It's kind of obvious. Even rapists know, they just choose to ignore it. I think too much consent chat actually pressures girls into thinking they should be consenting.

expatinscotland · 21/08/2014 10:02

Because it's possible to have sex, lots and lots even :o and have plenty of self-respect.

Some people do not need to attach love to it.

expatinscotland · 21/08/2014 10:03

And to say NO to things they don't want to do or try, a d recognise that people pressuring you are abusive.

DownstairsMixUp · 21/08/2014 10:22

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CaptChaos · 21/08/2014 10:42

I wish people would stop focusing on consent.

How about abstinence?

How about a mixture of the 2, but a mixture that takes into account that children will do what they see and that, as porn is now ubiquitous, your DS will have seen it.

Consent is not obvious, I'm afraid. A girl walking into a hotel with a man while paralytic drunk apparently gives reasonable doubt as to her not consenting in court. Lots of consent chat from a very early age for both girls and boys is the only way to ensure they have the tools they need.

HolidayPackingIsHardWork · 21/08/2014 10:45

I think the short coming of sex ed lessons is that they are basically value neutral. If they start setting boundaries and defining norms, which is what the children are desperate for imho, then someone pops up and takes offence. So, in the end they become a smorgasbord of things people sometimes choose to do, no judgement attached. To the kids, it looks like a check list.

JustTheRightBullets · 21/08/2014 10:49

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gussiegrips · 21/08/2014 10:49

Consent's the issue because, as some people have made clear - there's more to sex than missionary.

Consent means teaching boys that assault is not sexy.

My friend found her 15 year old son watching some brutal porn on his phone. She confiscated the phone, but, the next day, made him sit and watch the film with her.

"look at her face, do you think she's enjoying that? Do you think she's able to focus? So, if she looks drugged, are we watching a crime?"

He'd never looked the woman's face. Why would he?

I'd give her mum of the year - great parenting.

Mind you, she said she was mortified.

CaptChaos · 21/08/2014 10:50

Just - you're absolutely right.

It's still a complete crock though, don't you think?