So, not everyone's a feminist

[Vivacia]

Plasterer arrived today for the first of four days. I am working from home but everyone else is out.

So far we've had,

"You're not one of these modern women are you?" - don't know, not sure what that means.

"Are you a feminist?" - "Of course I am, aren't you?".

mind you, there's a casual sexism post in AIBU that's got some pretty depressing responses, so you're not wrong

It's so much easier to discredit an idea when you can discredit the person making it, d

... don't you find? The smug derision from some quarters demonstrates the paucity of genuine reflection. Whatever; it's your playground, you get to be the 'in gang'.

The fact remains that, on the briefest of evidence from a single source, the majority of people on this thread would find this man guilty of misogyny with undertones of potential threat. I have guessed at potential factors not because I think they may be correct, but to suggest that there are potential other factors. But, no. No one's interested in anything other than the blatant oppressive behaviours that always cannily match the FWR blueprint.

The fact remains that, on the briefest of evidence from a single source, the majority of people on this thread would find this man guilty of misogyny with undertones of potential threat

Why do you think the evidence of a women who was there is not credible?

That's the crux of your argument as far as I can tell. The source is unreliable.

Because she's a women against a man perhaps?

"It's so much easier to discredit an idea when you can discredit the person making it"

Er, that's exactly the tactic you tried with Vivacia Glovender. You made up a whole make-belief scenario where she was some angry feminist berating the poor put-upon ragged trousered philanthropist who was plastering her walls. Your immediate response was that she was being classist and snobby, even though it's you who are the one who snobbily assumed that working class men are fucking stupid Neanderthals and you knew nothing whatsoever about Vivacia's class. It's what barristers do to rape victims - they make up ludicrous scenarios about the woman, her attitudes and her behaviour in order to discredit her testimony about the actual facts of the event. It's what men do to women all the bloody time - we aren't allowed to speak of our experiences with men being sexist to us, putting us in our place, threatening us, being creepy towards us, deliberately making us feel uncomfortable, without other men demanding that we bend over backwards to give creepiness the benefit of the doubt and prove beyond reasonable doubt as if we are in a courtroom, that our perceptions of our experiences are reliable. Because the automatic assumption is that they are not, because we're women and women are unreliable and it's lucky men are there to tell us what's what. That attitude surrounds us all the time in our daily life and it's what ensures that women don't speak in public in mixed company about their experiences of sexism - because they know they will be trashed by the mansplainers in the company. It is a really, really effective silencing technique and you are shamelessly trying to use it on this board. Unsuccessfully because women see men like you and we know what you're doing.

As for claiming that creepy is a word which silences men - LOL frankly. If only it did. Sexist men don't like it because it vocalises something they know exists and they know is true but they prefer it to be unacknowledged. Like sexual harassment, when it was first coined as a term, sexist men hated it because it gave women the language to express a reality which up to then, they hadn't been able to describe.

Added to which any man who feels he is silenced by the concept of creepiness, is probably a creep.

"- there is no possibility that this was a crass and clumsy attempt at humour."
Of course there's a possiblilty of that. It doesn't make it less sexist though and it doesn't make the root of the humour less misogynist.

" - there is no possibility that the OP is anything other than an honest broker."
Well of course she isn't, she has a vagina, that makes her intrinsically unreliable, we'd better bombard her with demands that she evidence her experience and remind her that she shouldn't expect to be believed when she states her experience.

"- there is no possibility that was a highly privileged person lecturing someone of less privilege on the importance of equality such that the latter took a cheap shot at the former being somewhat irked at the former's haughty didactic utterances."
There is actually very little possibility of that. That's the made up male fantasy of how feminists behave in RL. Vivacia the feminazi stole plasterer man's ice-cream.

Good posts, Basil.

Thank you to Basil and Capt.

I have felt harangued on this thread, misrepresented and was silenced yesterday by Glovender - what was the point in trying to refute every mis-claim they made about me and my experience? I'd just look defensive and/or a liar.

I don't feel silenced any more.

Gah! I meant to say thank you to everyone at the end of that first sentence too!

Exactly Justtherightbullets.

If we refuse to engage in friendly banter, we're uptight snobby bitches who look down on tradesmen (even if we're working class ourselves. )

If we don't, if he then sexually assaults us (which does happen) then the fact that we haven't been uptight snobby bitches, means we led him on and then changed our minds.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

I have a neighbour who keeps offering me his builder's number for various jobs. I won't have his builder in the house because I don't feel safe with him there, it's as simple as that. He invited me in to see the changes he'd made to my (next door) neighbour's house while they were out, which I felt was inappropriate; I don't know if they want their next door neighbour wandering round their house when they are not there. When he did come in to my place to look at a job I was thinking of having done, he touched me a couple of times while we were chatting, he was garrulous and friendly and curious and intrusive and as he was chatting away he started to climb the stairs - he was half way up them - to have a look at the upstairs even though there was no job up there. The normal response to someone leading the way like that is to follow them but MN has taught me that I don't have to do that, so I stayed at the bottom and he had to come down. There was something about his lack of boundaries which made me feel unsafe with him in the house, I couldn't wait to get him out, I won't let him in again, but if I try to explain to my neighbour my reservations about him, there's a chance that given that he's male and probably hasn't done the reading, much less spent 30 years negotiating communication with people who are automatically more likely to be believed than him, he'll have the same response as Glovender and dismiss my feelings as hysterical irrational nonsense.

Men dismiss women's feelings in situations like this ALL THE BLOODY TIME. I really don't see why anyone should put up with it in the FWR section of MN.

Talk about reinvention! It's pretty simple: a variety of possible scenarios given minimal evidence versus only one possible scenario because, prima facie, that minimal evidence falls nearly into an anticipated narrative. Yes, it COULD be as you all believe it to be. But it COULD also be something else. No one will accept that this COULD have been anything other than a situation that, surprise surprise, you already have written your lines for. And when someone tries to point out that you're calling for someone to be sacked on the barest of evidence, you then go on to trot out similarly well-worn lines about that voice trying to silence women. Oh. Please.

All I can say is that nothing will ever get better for you. If you wake up in the morning expecting to see oppression and sexism and have a little black book full of rehearsed conclusions to every new experience that comes along, then every new experience will look much as you're expecting to see it. But, at least you can come here where a gaggle of like-minds will offer succour, not ask difficult questions and convince you that your paranoia and selective interpretation are perfectly justifiable.

No wonder so many women don't identify as feminists if this is how you all behave.

No wonder so many women don't identify as feminists if this is how you all behave

Are you one of us feminists though?

I normally lurk rather than post in FWR as there are many more eloquent posters than me here. But, for once, I'd just like to contribute in my inelegant way by saying that you are pissing me right off Glovender and ODFOD.

it's pretty simple:

1. if the OP decides to ask him to leave, then at worst she is inconvenienced through having to find another plasterer and he might have learnt that he has to be careful what he says when he's on a job (note he is self-employed - if he can't market himself properly then that's his problem)

1. if the OP decides not to ask him to leave:

(a) best-case scenario - she feels uncomfortable in her own house for a few days knowing there's a sexist arsehole who doesn't know how to behave appropriately in a professional situation, but ultimately she gets the work done on the house that she needs. he gets his money, goes merrily on his way

(b) worst-case scenario - he is a sexist arsehole who is actually a danger to women and is in her house - you fill in the details

in general, probably the best-case scenario is what most people experience the OP doesn't know which of the latter two scenarios is the case with this specific man. the OP may have weighed things up, and decided that scenario 2(a) is the one that best fits her situation, and that's fine - she's the one who is there and best placed to make that decision. but sometimes for women the risks associated with the schrodinger's rapist scenario are too high. it's not based on paranoia - plenty of self-declared non-feminist women would be alarmed by his comments about porn

of course, there are plenty of men who are a danger to women who don't handily identify themselves with sexist comments, but when a man identify himself as sexist through his behaviour then you're automatically on your guard. and why the fuck should she have to be weighing up these things in the first place? if the idiot conducted himself appropriately and professionally she wouldn't even have to consider this stuff.

I had a reprieve yesterday as I was on transporting and children-sports-attending duties.

Today's plan is stay barricaded at this side of the house and use the outside toilet. A mate came and dropped off some materials and plasterer shouted through, "She's no good at making cups of tea this one". That is all that's been said.

i bet you're deeply upset at this slur on your tea-making capabilities viv

I normally lurk rather than post in FWR as there are many more eloquent posters than me here. But, for once, I'd just like to contribute in my inelegant way by saying that you are pissing me right off Glovender and ODFOD.

This is almost word for word what I wanted to say.

I applaud those patient enough and willing to attempt a rational discussion.

I make tea for no one, so really he'll never know.

Oh Lordy . Having just lived through an extensive house renovation project (although we were absent for most of it we did have a couple of months with builders still hanging around) I knwo how stressful it can be having them around. I can only imagine what it must be like with this sort of totally unacceptable and seemingly deliberate unpleasantness.

On the one hand, sack the bastard. Or at least make pointed comments in his direction about how you won't be recommending him. But on the other hand, and this is the one I'd go for, it is hard to find people who do a decent job at the time you need them to do it. Getting this bit done is critical to you being able to get the rest of the job finished. If he is not making a mess of it, don't sack him. And I'd hold off the (totally justifiable) comments until he has finished. You don't want him getting all arsey and doing a sloppy job to spite you. Once he's done, and once it is completely clear that the job is a good one and you don't need to get him back, then you can tell him he won't be getting any recommendations from you.

This is nothing to do with not standing up for yourself, or letting him get away with it. It's picking and timing your battle, so you stay in control and are in charge of the situation.

Good luck. Sounds utterly grim.

I don't envy you at all Vivacia. Hope you manage to feel more comfortable in your 'cave'.

Although, looking at it from the other wanker's PoV. I'm sure he just mean that you were using that poncy middle class loose tea, you know, the one that smells of perfume, instead of good solid working man's tea. You probably also tried to serve it to him in a teacup with a saucer, on a tray, with naice biscuits instead of a good working class mug, with a half empty packet of hob-nobs, didn't you, you fucking awful MC bastard. I bet you did it while holding forth about women's sufferage and patriarchy as well... yeah, i know your type....

Or you could just be a perfectly nice woman who is trying to work from home with a stranger in the house who seems physically incapable of keeping his inappropriate comments to himself. Who knows!?