School's response to a pupil transitioning female to male making me uncomfortable...

[MoreCrackThanHarlem]

Hi everyone.
Long time MN'er, and although I haven't posted in this topic before, I am an avid reader and have learned so much from the posters here.

I suppose I am looking for a feminist viewpoint on a situation that has developed at my daughter's school which makes me feel uncomfortable.

A child in my daughter's year at Secondary school has chosen, since Y7, to live as a boy. She was a girl through Primary, a footballing superstar, and was described by many as a 'tomboy', though I dislike the expression myself.

Most of the children in his year have only known him as a boy and are unaware of his past, though there have been many rumours and much gossip about this.

After a few incidents on social media where children have made comments about him actually 'being a girl', he asked to address an assembly to set the record straight.
During this assembly he told the entire year group that he is a boy, has always been a boy, and would like people to stop saying otherwise as it was very upsetting for him.

Since transition he has changed radically, particularly, conforming to social gender stereotypes by having relationships with numerous girls, calling girls 'slags' on FB, and becoming friends with a group of disruptive boys who truant ,drink alcohol and spend lots of time discussing girl's physical assets on FB. Not pleasant.

My daughter's friend has begun a 'relationship' with this boy, and it has gone further than kissing. He has told her he has always been a boy which she believes, and has explained his use of the toilet in the staff office by telling her he has a hormone disorder.

I think school have been complicit in his deceit by allowing him to address the other children during assembly and I worry that my daughter's friend is being prevented from making a fully informed choice with regard to her relationship with him.

I would just like to hear other's thoughts on this, and what, if any, action you would take.

To add, I absolutely support other's choices to live 'as' the opposite sex, though I feel uncomfortable with the idea that he has the right to tell others he has always been a boy, as despite his feelings, this is biologically untrue?

Sorry it's a bit jumbled.

OP - what would you like the school to do? And if it emerged that the boy has not told the GF, should they disclose? I am genuinely interested in what you think.

But what if this is not the case? Do I sit on my hands when I believe a child may be at risk of emotional harm?

If this is not the case, and without the full facts (you have no idea of the truth of the situation) you can only raise concerns with the adults involved and let them take it from there. Then you leave it alone. If you press the matter further and you are wrong then you are putting the boy at risk of emotional harm by publicly challenging his identity.

If you desperately need to satisfy your perceived responsibility in this matter then I suggest you pop round and see his mother. It will be a difficult conversation to admit that you are essentially a stranger but feel somehow morally involved in the whole issue. You acknowledge that it's none of your business but ask her anyway to be honest with you about his gender swapping as you witnessed him living as both both and girl. She might be happy to brief you of the facts, then again, she might tell you to piss off. If you don't feel comfortable discussing this with his mother because you feel that's too intrusive to their privacy as a family, then you have your answer to the extent of your moral obligation, stop there and leave it alone.

MoreCrack all isn't well though is it because of the misogynist behaviour of this group of boys, the truanting, the getting pissed up when he should be at school, and the string of sexual relationships.

While all of these things taken apart are not unusual, taken all together and in the knowledge that this boy has something happened in his life around sex/gender which was likely confusing and difficult and having had to contend with rumours etc.... Well be obviously needs support and help and stuff I'd have thought.

The girlfriends parents also should be clued in that they are in a sexual relationship - 13/14 is still pretty young I think and even though it goes on all the time still better if the parents know so they can look after their daughter if it all goes wrong in standard teenage fashion. + of course her BF sounds like a bit of a nightmare anyway so again if it were my DD I'd want to know.

I think this is a massively complicated area and one in which I am pretty ignorant.

However, I do understand the OP's concerns and in her position would speak to the school - I would say I knew they couldn't discuss other children with me but would alert them to what I viewed as a potential issue. They would then be at liberty to ignore me/regard me as an interfering busybody or whatever.

And I must say the thought of 13/14 being too young to do much but kissing - well I think that's pretty naive sadly.

It will be a difficult conversation to admit that you are essentially a stranger but feel somehow morally involved in the whole issue.

I'm guessing this is an insinuation that I am a nosy bag and should keep my nose out.
If I feel a child is at risk I do feel morally obliged to communicate this to the school.
I have previously spoken to another parent when her daughter posted a nude photo on social media.
Yes...I am that nosy

As for the misogynistic behaviour, I feel utterly powerless as it is so rife and seemingly accepted and almost encouraged by the female cohort. It depresses me immensely.
School have spoken on several occasions to the students about this.

All I can do is talk, talk and talk to my daughter, try to surround her with positive role models, fill her with self belief and encourage her ambitions.

It really is unbelievably common and socially acceptable in her year group

Encouraged was the wrong word.
I mean they 'join in' with the misogynistic bullying and their lack of self esteem leads them to align themselves with the most 'popular' characters, who are often the most aggressive and disruptive.

Awful, awful culture amongst the teens, really. I wonder if other parents of teens see the same kinds of behaviours?

My child isn't a teen, but I teach teens, and I know exactly the type of Behaviour you mean.

I'm not sure why my iPad put a capital B there!

I guess I am insinuating that a little

It just seems that you are on the periphery of this issue and that there are many other 'responsible' adults involved - and I'm not saying don't speak to someone at the school about your concerns - school teachers/pastoral managers are not infallible about making judgement calls on these kind of things, it largely depends on personal judgement of the pastoral team involved - but you do have to trust that they are acting on more information than you. If they let the boy talk in public at school they must have at least discussed it with his mother first, surely?

Once you've raised your concerns, IMHO, leave it alone. You've done your bit. You're not a key player here.

Beyond that, if you still have a burning desire to do the right thing in protecting young people, consider a career change to social work: god knows we need more social worker to protect children from far more serious harm than these children you're currently worried about.

I don't really get the whole 'leave it to the professionals; they know what they are doing' argument - as if there aren't constant examples of professionals screwing up!

I'm going to have to flounce and do the dinner. Let me say this:

• OP, I'm sorry for having attributed a gender identity to you. I shouldn't have. It's your own business.

• In my view, if this boy says he is a boy, then he is. He didn't lie in assembly so the school aren't complicit in anything. However, if they aren't sufficiently educating the children about transgender issues, they are failing them. You should raise it.

• The boy's behaviour and that of other boys sounds terrible, this should be dealt with by the school and the parents.

• All the young people need to understand consent. If this boy does, he will tell (or already has told) the GF sufficient information for her to consent and not suffer emotional harm. I hope (although I'd not be confident) that the school are supporting all of them in this and equipping them with the tools for respectful, equal relationships. Again, it would not be inappropriate to raise it with the school.

• I hope you don't go further and speak to any parents or children (other than your DD). I know you are concerned for DD's friend and that is commendable but this is a can of worms that it is not your place to open.

• I hope it is all resolved without harm to any of the participants. I wish you good luck.

• Everyone else - it's been an eye opener! Cheers.

There has been a lot of focus on the OP's understanding of gender and biological sexual,identity - but surely the issue at hand is the girl's understanding? Does she think the boy is physically male, or does she know that he has female genitalia?

At that age, it is very possible that she will have heard him say he has always been a boy, and will have assumed that what he was saying is that he has always been a boy in every way - physically, mentally, emotionally, when what he was actually saying is that he's always been a boy emotionally and mentally - and that is what matters to him and is central to his identity, not his genitalia.

If this is the case, she is going into a relationship with this boy based on a misunderstanding, and if the relationship carries on and becomes more serious, and then she finds out he has female genitalia, she could,,feel really betrayed and upset. I suspect this is what the OP fears.

There is also the risk that the girl finds out that the boy has female genitalia, and because she is hurt and upset, it blows up hugely (because teenagers do get really intense about love at that age), and the boy ends up getting far more hurt than he would have done if the truth had come out from the word go. By truth, I mean the fact that emotionally and mentally he is and always has been a girl, but that he has the wrong genitalia a for the way he identifies, and will be taking steps to resolve this.

At least your insinuation was a little more polite than the previous 'keep your fucking nose out'

I will raise it at school and try to trust their response will be appropriate.
As for the change in career, my current role is largely managing live CP cases, attending conferences and requesting, arranging and delivering additional support for children at risk of harm or not achieving their full potential.

Nosiness is an essential quality

That was to madamweasel, I'm a slow typer

Cheryl, as I said before, any discussion that furthers knowledge and understanding is useful, even if it only serves to consolidate your original opinion.
Enjoy your dinner

Thanks Buffy. Agree with all of that. It is an incredibly tricky thing and I don't know the answer. Anything where the legitimate rights of two parties are in contradiction is almost impossible to navigate

SDTG.
Yes, my the girl has til my daughter that he is physically male. This is what he told her and what all the children assumed from what was said during the assembly.

13 year olds have no concept of gender identity (whether or not you believe that to exist outside a social construct), unless they have been specifically spoken to about the idea. The school has neglected to do this and taken the easiest way out, imo, ie He is a boy, always has been, now let's brush it under the carpet.

told

So basically going on some posts on this thread, this boys right to identify as a gender that he was not born, trumps the right of the girl to properly consent to the type of relationship she has? I thought this was the woman's rights board...

What if this girl was religious and her religion was completely against homosexuality? I'm pretty sure that identifying with another gender wouldn't be quite enough in that situation (and he is bound to come across this situation at some point). Would his rights still win over hers?

It is completely morally wrong to let this girl believe that she is in a relationship with a biological male when she isn't. IMO sexual contact under those circumstances would be abuse, yet this is all a case of protecting his privacy!?

I am totally shocked at this thread.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the law, schro. Everyone has to tread carefully. It's a really sensitive area.

I don't think that the gist is that his rights trump hers at all though.

MoreCrack "Yes, my the girl has til my daughter that he is physically male." So he's lied to her then? You said earlier he is strapping his breasts so obviously he has female sexual characteristics (thinking about the intersex posts). That kind of puts paid to the she probably knows - he will have told her - etc comments.

What a situation.

Really the school need to be talking to him about honesty in relationships or something? I have no idea what the procedures are with this stuff and as it's a pretty unusual situation I would imagine the school are winging it a touch as well.

This boy hasn't actually undergone any gender reassignment yet, according to the OP, this is what is making this even tougher to digest.

I don't know, I feel really strongly about this issue. My DP is male but identifies as a female, I only found out the full extent of which after we started a relationship. It was the most complete mind fuck (sorry about the phrasing, I can't think of any other way to say it) I have ever gone through. He does not live as a F but I know that it has affected him that he didn't go down that route. It is a painful and emotional rollercoaster finding that out, I don't imagine a 14 year old would cope very well with it at all.

I also had a friend who was close for a while who was living as a female, she took hormones but didn't plan on having surgery, we used to go out and she would have anal sex with men in alleys, clubs etc and would never tell them, I always thought that was wrong but it seems going by others views, she wasn't doing anything wrong at all . She was beat up for it though, on more than one occasion.

Tbh, I am probably to emotionally involved in this subject to have a clear view as when DP read this with me last night, he didn't have the same opinion.

It's all such a mess isn't it.

I guess it's a relatively new thing to start to come out into the open more and as time passes things will get better all round. That doesn't help people much right now though.