School's response to a pupil transitioning female to male making me uncomfortable...

[MoreCrackThanHarlem]

Hi everyone.
Long time MN'er, and although I haven't posted in this topic before, I am an avid reader and have learned so much from the posters here.

I suppose I am looking for a feminist viewpoint on a situation that has developed at my daughter's school which makes me feel uncomfortable.

A child in my daughter's year at Secondary school has chosen, since Y7, to live as a boy. She was a girl through Primary, a footballing superstar, and was described by many as a 'tomboy', though I dislike the expression myself.

Most of the children in his year have only known him as a boy and are unaware of his past, though there have been many rumours and much gossip about this.

After a few incidents on social media where children have made comments about him actually 'being a girl', he asked to address an assembly to set the record straight.
During this assembly he told the entire year group that he is a boy, has always been a boy, and would like people to stop saying otherwise as it was very upsetting for him.

Since transition he has changed radically, particularly, conforming to social gender stereotypes by having relationships with numerous girls, calling girls 'slags' on FB, and becoming friends with a group of disruptive boys who truant ,drink alcohol and spend lots of time discussing girl's physical assets on FB. Not pleasant.

My daughter's friend has begun a 'relationship' with this boy, and it has gone further than kissing. He has told her he has always been a boy which she believes, and has explained his use of the toilet in the staff office by telling her he has a hormone disorder.

I think school have been complicit in his deceit by allowing him to address the other children during assembly and I worry that my daughter's friend is being prevented from making a fully informed choice with regard to her relationship with him.

I would just like to hear other's thoughts on this, and what, if any, action you would take.

To add, I absolutely support other's choices to live 'as' the opposite sex, though I feel uncomfortable with the idea that he has the right to tell others he has always been a boy, as despite his feelings, this is biologically untrue?

Sorry it's a bit jumbled.

Oh for god's sake. She said "I am a woman" she did not say " I am female". This is nonsense and this thread is clearly getting hijacked by people with an axe to grind.

I am saying that "boy" does not necessarily mean "male human being" in all cases and therefore no one told a lie in the assembly. OP continues to maintain there is a deception.

I fully agree that if the school uses "boy" in this way and does not educate children regarding the existence of transgender people, then are not doing their job and there is space for confusion.

I also clearly said that the OP had the right to ask the school whether these issues were being covered.

But what do you mean when you say "identify as a woman"?

Your first link (and I only read the first part) talks around both an internal "gender identity" and gender as a socialised binary construct. So it's not a straightforward "this is what it is".

Honestly I am interested to hear your take on it as we tie ourselves up in knots on this over here.

I have never had any training on transgender issues.
And I would be questioning any progressional who asked me to identify as male or female in any other way than biologically.

Am I being thick here?

Professional

I also don't know of any educating regarding transgender issues going on in schools.

This is nonsense

I don't think it's nonsense.

My main concern is that he has led her to believe he is biologically a boy and school have been complicit in removing her right to choose. To all intents and purposes she is unknowingly participating in a lesbian relationship.
But she isn't participating in a lesbian relationship. A lesbian relationship is one that takes place between two girls/women. This is a girl and a boy and the boy has not yet had gender reassignment surgery. He is still a boy. He is a boy in every aspect of his life, apart from possibly his genitals.
The relationship is very unlikely to be very sexual yet. They are both still young so it is probably just kissing.
I don't understand what risk she can be facing? She does not have the right to know everything about her boyfriend when it is quite obviously a very young and not serious relationship. He has the right to privacy.
It is completely unfair for someone to follow this boy around in his life, letting people know that he used to be a girl! He is now a boy. That is all that matters. It is HIS decision what he shares with his girlfriends and when to share it.
The OP doesn't even know what genitalia this boy has!!

TheXxed The 2 cases you quoted did not involve trans gender people. They were both women who pretended to be and disguised themselves as men to enter sexual relationships with other women. The 3rd case is a very controversial one that would probably not have been brought had the girl not lied about her age. I think that the right to privacy could now be argued under the human rights act as gender identity is now a protected characteristic.

He is female-bodied but has, with the school's permission, stated that he has been a boy all his life. That statement, without further explanation, leaves the impression that the boy is male-bodied, which is not true.
Apart from the fact that we DON'T know about his body. He could be inter-sex and lived his early life identified as a girl.

It is cases like this, that demonstrate just how difficult it must be, for any transgender or intersex person to transition, without someone from their past, jumping up to 'protect' people around them by telling them the 'truth'

He is a boy in every aspect of his life, apart from possibly his genitals

This attitude that genitals are a big nothing is absolutely fascinating to me. The idea that a man with a penis can say "I am a lesbian" and no one is supposed to laugh out loud... amazing.

He is a boy in every aspect of his life, apart from possibly his genitals.

He is living as a boy.
Again, I am finding it hard to understand how he is being truthful by saying he has always been a boy.

it is HIS decision what he shares with his girlfriends and when to share it.

So we are now removing the rights of women and men to choose, in possession of the full facts, the biological sex of their partner

She has told my daughter that the relationship has progressed further than kissing. I don't want to add any more detail about this, other than to say it is not yet a full sexual relationship.

Actually I think it's really important that people know who theyre in a relationship with when it comes to their genitalia.

It's overly liberal nonsense to say genitals don't matter at all !

Here is where it matters :

What happens if she married him and expected a penis on the wedding night and got a vulva?

That's the natural extension of your argument to say that no one needs to tell someone what genitals they've got.

In general you need to tell people you're in intimate relationships with what genitals you've got

It's only polite. Just like if you know you can't have children before marriage you tell the other person. Or if you have an std, or have been an intravenous drug user.

I think it's manipulative to not tell someone they're in a lesbian relationship. And let's be clear, a relationship is between 2 people and one of those people might view the other as a female if they have a vulva and no penis.

13/14 it is perfectly believable that this relationship is or will become sexual.

It is also possible that it could be more long lasting than some assume. Several of my peers left school still dating those they went out with in year 9/10.

Maybe the boy saying he has always been a boy isn't deceptive.

But when that is interpreted by his peers as a physical description (and yes, I make room for the fact that perhaps they all know he only means from an identity perspective, but I doubt it), then that is deceptive. Doesn't matter for his peers, but for a relationship, then yes it matters.

The school at minimum should be teaching that "I've always been an XYZ" does not necessarily refer to genitalia.

OP, I'm struggling here with your assertions that sex and gender are the same thing and that biology cannot lie and that the boy may be lying about having a 'hormonal' condition and therefore needs to use the staff toilet.

Have you considered certain genetic/hormonal conditions such as:
"Androgen insensitivity syndrome is a condition that affects sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell. Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development."

If the boy has this condition and was wrongly identified at birth as a 'girl' because of the expressed physical female characteristics and lived as a girl for the first 10 years until perhaps having some detailed genetic tests, in which case, along with the 'tomboy' persona from his childhood and his genetic, biological status as 'male' could this not account for his 'always been a boy', identified with masculine gender but has anomalous female physical characteristics at odds with his genetic sex as well as his social gender, plus takes into account the discussion of his 'hormonal' problem.

You're not his mother, you don't know his medical history and biology is not as black and white as you think it is. As a feminist, I believe that gender is a social construct and I have the right to be as feminine or masculine as I feel like, as does my DH, as does my DS and any other person on the planet.

Doesn't matter for his peers, but for a relationship, then yes it matters.

I agree. Of course they all processed 'always been a boy' as a physical state since birth.
And should this relationship not last,the peers that were witness to this assembly could potentially become involved in a relationship with him.
'I have always felt like/believed I was a boy' would have made this clearer. If he was not prepared to say this (totally understandable), the matter should never have been raised. Unless school were willing to step up and fill in the gaps of knowledge around trans issues.

Buffy Hold on, who is saying that he doesn't need to tell his GF? It's absolutely essential that it happens (at an appropriate point) if it hasn't already. I'm saying, it's very difficult for the school to ensure that happens without telling the GF themselves. Should they do that?

It may also be the case that the boy was born male, was trans during primary school and identified as a girl, but once puberty started no longer felt he was trans and now identifies as a boy.

madamweasel, you are right.
I do not have full knowledge of his medical background and I am not his mother.
If he has a physiological condition which led to him being misidentified as a girl at birth, this is a non issue.

If I raise this issue with school, they would surely have enough knowledge of his background to know my concerns are unfounded. In which case, all is well.
But what if this is not the case? Do I sit on my hands when I believe a child may be at risk of emotional harm?

MostWicked said 'it is HIS decision what he shares with his girlfriends and when to share it.'

"OP, I'm struggling here with your assertions that sex and gender are the same thing and that biology cannot lie" I don't think MoreCrack is asserting that. She is saying that sex and gender are separate and that gender is a social construct. She has also stated that she doesn't have a gender identity despite people on this thread wanting to give her one

Sorry to talk about you in the third person there OP.