Foetus' right to life vs women's bodily autonomy

[AmberTheCat]

I've just been reading a paper written by a friend of a friend, arguing that a foetus should be seen as having the same right to life as a postpartum human, because there are no lines that can be drawn between a foetus and someone post-birth that couldn't also be drawn between two postpartum humans. He added a note to say that clearly there is a question of how this right to life relates to women's autonomy, but that this wasn't something he was addressing in this paper.

Given that this is surely THE question, can you help me refine my arguments for the primacy of bodily autonomy? My instinctive view is that I can't see any way of denying that a foetus is a human being, or at least has the potential to become a human being, depending on how developed it is, but that the decision of whether or not to allow that (potential) human to grow inside her must still always remain the woman's. I'm quite out of touch with the thinking around this, though, so would welcome pointers.

Thanks!

". I would struggle with a feminism that did not give voice to the most vulnerable"

From a feminist POV the woman is the most vulnerable

can't we just legislate for all men to have sperm extracted then frozen at the age of say 11, at which point they can be given vasectomies?

this would ensure that future pregnancies were intentional by both parties, and reduce significantly the risk of unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions

it seems to me that men eager for state interference in bodily autonomy should get to enjoy this privilege themselves

NB in my legislative utopia, abortion remains free, legal, and readily available up to full term for any reason, whatsoever

'Of course the fetus has no voice. To have a voice, you need a thought in your head and, at the very least, the intent to verbalise it.'

I pity how you would treat the mentally disabled. In civilised societies, the most vulnerable and least able to verbalise are advocated for.

'go ahead larry post is there any situation where women should not have total control over their bodies you may get a few rabid pro lifers agree with you'

I suspect that 90+% of women would not allow an 8.5 month pregnant woman an abortion merely because she chose to do so. These are not 'rabid pro lifers' but the vast majority of the population of both sexes.

None of us, neither men nor women, have total control of our bodies in law. If we are suspected of a crime, DNA can be taken under court order. If any of our actions endangers another human being, due balance is given to the needs of both of us. Consent does not absolve someone of assault.

It is amazing how strongly many on this thread would defend a woman's decision to kill a 9 month old 'foetus' yet, 1 day later (post birth) would equally strongly protest the right of the same foetus to retain a fraction of a millimetre of foreskin tissue, yet see no contradiction between the two positions.

I believe most on this thread are parents. It would have been fascinating being a fly on the wall as you discussed your 'foetuses'. I assume they were referred to as 'it' up until the moment of birth. I assume midwives were corrected if they spoke of listening to 'baby's' heart with a stern reprimand that it was not a human being but merely a parasite to which you were granting the right to life. And I am sure none of you used the term 'unborn baby'....ever.

Larry you do understand that we are talking about women who don't want to be pregnant don't you?

"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm gets wasted, god gets quite irate".
Funny how it's never eggs he gets worried about

Larry you simply can not understand what it feels like to be pregnant and not want to be but you could empathise which you choose after a time limit not too

no one on here wishes women to feel the need to have a termination but sadly it's part of life and one women carry the burden of so it should be us and only is that decide what happens to out bodies not men or other women but for ourselves to have total control out own body

The difference larry is between wanting to be pregnant and not wanting to be. A wanted pregnancy will be in the hope of having a baby at the end of it. You are nitpicking now anyway.

And I have only had it referred to as a foetal heartbeat by midwives.

Out meant our ....

Petula,

If you feel a late term foetus is a baby when it is wanted, it is still a baby if not wanted. I know women have amazing powers but they cannot transmute a baby into a foetus or vice versa purely by willing it.

Capt,

Guess what, I will no more go through pregnancy than you will ever be circumcised. Guess what, you are still allowed an opinion on it. You may want to go and live on a desert island where men have no rights to an opinion on the rights of (what I regard to be) living people, but you might struggle to find anywhere accepting of your perspective.

As to my comments being disablist, haha! If you read them, they are quite the opposite. But anything to make a (weak) argument.

Women do not want to have abortions, what they want is not to be pregnant. You cannot grasp this larry you really can't and you should feel grateful that the world does not stand judge and jury over your body and what happens to it,because you really are in the privileged position. Its not right but its the world as it is today.

Still,

I grasp it just fine, thanks.

I am NOT a pro lifer. I am quite happy believing that, up to a point, the embryo/foetus has zero rights and the woman can do as she will with it. The question is, for me, this point is a long time before birth.

It is a strange kind of feminism trying to force an extreme position on fellow women. Most women do not want to change the law to allow abortion on demand until birth. What do you make of this majority? Are they stupid? Cowed by the patriarchy? I don't think so. I think that they are quite capable of considering the relative rights and forming a balanced opinion.

I dont think circumcision is really comparable to abortion though larry do you?

The only flying shit I would give about circumcision relates to bodily autonomy and men's / boys right to it, as I argue for women's right for it for abortion.

Interesting word Force. You have no problem with forcing women over the 24 week mark to remain pregnant. No one is going to force an anbortion on any woman, its all about choice and the right to choose, the right of a living, born human to choose.

You are right Capt .

Capt,

Quit with the personal stuff. You know it is not allowed. How about you take your own advice and quit engaging.

The only time your opinion on abortion is of any weight or relevance is when you are pregnant and do not want to be. Therefore, if you are a man, your opinion on abortion is completely unimportant and irrelevant to the rest of the world. If you have impregnated a woman, then you may want to discuss the issue of whether or not the pregnancy continues, and she may be happy to discuss it with you. Or she may tell you to fuck off. Either way, the decision is hers and not yours. Because she is not your property.

By the way, as far as the law is concerned when it comes to parents who are not in a couple relationship and not on speaking terms, even though the woman is intending to carry the pregnancy to term, the man has no rights whatsoever. He can't go to antenatal appointments, police her behaviour, attend the birth, unless she lets him. If he wants to have contact with his baby against the mother's wishes, he has no rights at all until the baby is born. (Yes, technically, the man has no rights anyway, the rights in question are those of the child to see his/her father). I am entirely in favour of this.

So personhood is conferred at birth. This seems to be the only sensible way of looking at it. Birth is indisputable. Stuff about how many weeks pg a woman is, well, you can';t be sure of exact dates, some very premature (wanted) babies live and thrive and, a few years down the line, are no different to full term babies, some less premature but still premature babies die shortly after birth, etc. No guarantees, no matter what.

But everyone who is actively and vehemently opposed to abortion is really all about hating women. Well-meaning twerps who think late abortion is an unpleasant thing and there 'ought to be a cut off date' are just well-meaning twerps. Just take a look at the more and more alarming laws being enacted in the US, to restrict women's access to contraception, sex education, to criminalize them for drinking or taking drugs or doing risky jobs even if they are not pregnant and don't wish to be - the whole anti-choice agenda is about men desperate to own and control women and reduce them to a subhuman status of 'walking incubator.'

Totally agree SGB

^that

If you are discussing wanted pregnancies the feelings and discussions will obviously be totally different to unwanted pregancies you total twonk.

Excellent post SGB.

if you are a man, your opinion on abortion is completely unimportant and irrelevant to the rest of the world.

I'd say the opinions of male legislators who potentially debate and set abortion laws are pretty relevant, practically speaking.

The question is not when is an abortion acceptable, but who should decide.

Larry you are not going to find anyone who will say "I personally would abort a healthy 39 week fetus simply because I changed my mind" and I don't believe that anybody actually does this except in extraordinary circumstances such as extreme fetal abnormalities or imminent risk of death to the woman. The point is that the pregnant woman is the only person who can make that decision. (how high a risk is enough risk? of what exactly happening? If we take that choice away from her, should we also force her to abort if the risks are deemed to high?). So stop banging on about it. It's a distraction from the real issue just as much as it would be if posters only wanted to discuss the status of a just-fertilized egg that hasn't even implanted yet. Or the "rights" of a separate egg and sperm just before they meet up.

All of the factors being discussed here - the circumstances of conception (rape? contraception failure? abusive relationship? ons?) - fetal abnormalities (how grave? how high a risk? what prognosis?) - risk to the mothers life or health (how high? of what? any pregnancy carries some risk of disability or even death of the mother) - her mental health - her willingness and capability to carry the pregnancy to term or parent a child if she does....philosophical or religious ideas about whether its a clump of cells or a future person, her sense of responsibility towards it...

these are all factors for the pregnant woman to consider when making her decision. Her situation is unique to her. And nobody else's opinion is relevant.